Episode 273: Inside Lloyds Banking Group’s People Transformation (with Sharon Doherty)
What does it take to turn a 300-year-old bank into the UK's biggest fintech?
Sharon Doherty is Chief People and Places Officer at Lloyds Banking Group, and over the last four years she's been leading one of the most ambitious organisational transformations in British financial services - 300-year-old institution reinventing itself as the UK's biggest fintech.
In this episode, David and Sharon get into what transformation at that scale actually looks like from the inside - the governance, the culture work, the AI strategy, and the tough calls that only leadership can make.
How Sharon thinks about her role as CPPO through three lenses: storyteller, tough lover, and disruptor
The AI governance structure at Lloyds, including the control tower she runs with the CTO and the ethics committee that underpins every decision
The cross-functional super agent Lloyds is building with Microsoft
Why HR leaders should be fighting to get Places on their remit, and how ownership of the physical environment transforms what the function can deliver
How Lloyds is approaching the shift from AI literacy to AI fluency across 80,000 people
What Sharon thinks the world of work looks like in 2033, and the role HR must play in getting there
This episode is sponsored by TechWolf.
The world of work is being rewritten faster than HR systems can keep up. Skills age in months. Roles get redesigned quarter by quarter. CHROs have quietly become AI transformation leads, and the data they need to lead it doesn't exist in any HR system.
That's why the world's most forward-looking enterprises such as HSBC, AMD, T-Mobile, GSK, ServiceNow, Pfizer, have built on TechWolf.
As the data layer for the AI era of work, TechWolf gives enterprises the skills, they need to move faster and lead with confidence. Skills Intelligence, Work Intelligence, and Market Intelligence, in one layer. Visit techwolf.ai.
This episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast is brought to you by TechWolf.
[0:00:08] David Green: Today's episode is a special one, as what Sharon Doherty has led at Lloyds Banking Group over the last four years is generally one of the most impressive transformations I've come across. Sharon is one of the most experienced Chief People and Places Officers in the UK, with a career spanning Heathrow, Vodafone, Finestra, and now Lloyds Banking Group, where she's been leading one of the most significant organisational transformations in British financial services. We're talking about a 300 year old institution reinventing itself as the UK's biggest fintech, 23 million digital customers, 50% of UK adults have a relationship with a bank, and a people and places function right at the centre of making it happen. Today, Sharon and I get into what it actually takes to lead transformation at that scale, from how she structured AI governance to the super agent she's building with Microsoft across all corporate functions, to why CHROs should lobby to have places a part of their remit, and how Sharon has reorganised the people and places function at the bank.
For those of you who have been with us since the very beginning of the podcast, Sharon was actually our first ever guest all the way back in May 2019. So, it feels fitting that Sharon is back as we approach episode 300. So, without further ado, let's get into the conversation by hearing from Sharon.
Sharon, welcome back to the show. You were our first guest on the Digital HR Leaders podcast all the way back in May 2019. So, really excited
[0:01:46] Sharon Doherty: Seven years ago.
[0:01:47] David Green: Seven years ago, yeah, I know. It's flown by, hasn't it?
[0:01:50] Sharon Doherty: Now, David, you're a celebrity now, yeah?
[0:01:53] David Green: I'm not sure about that. That's very kind of you. I think we had that conversation just as you were taking on the Chief People Officer role at Finestra. Please share with listeners, you know, what have you been up to in the years since, your role obviously now at Lloyds Banking Group, what it involves, and the career journey that brought you here, because it's definitely an inspiring one.
[0:02:14] Sharon Doherty: Yeah. So, look, I was just finishing Voda and literally, before I'd gone to Finestra, so I had no idea. I went into that because it was a pure-play fintech, 10,000, so pretty scaled in 30 countries and private equity. And I actually really loved that. So, very fast, much more creative, actually, even than Voda. And so, I learned a lot there and was able to work with an amazing team. And then, Charlie Nunn at Lloyds Banking Group knocked on the door, and it was just too good an opportunity to say no to. So, great CEO, the opportunity to reboot an icon. And then, before that, I always sort of look at my career in sort of four chapters. So, early career starting in retail, really lucky, great mentors and got lots of breaks. Then, my big break was going to be the HR and Change Director that built Terminal 5 and then ran Heathrow, the busiest international airport at that time. And I would say that was my favourite job, because it was real and seeing all your books, I wrote a book about it as it finished. And the lovely story I always tell, when my kid was about 4 or 5, I was in the airport with him and I said, "Oh, your mummy built this airport". And he was like, "Great". And then, we were in the Madrid airport and he said, "Mummy, did you build this one as well?" And I was like, "I haven't built every airport in the world"!
So, that was a fantastic chapter. And then, a decade pretty much at Vodafone, which was all about digital transformation and diversity. So, I wrote another book there, a decade of diversity at Vodafone, and then into financial services for the last seven-and-a-half years. And on the way, I've also done some NEDs, so that's been pretty interesting. And at the moment, I'm at the National Lottery. So, I get the opportunity to work with two sort of UK national icons that are really playing a big part in UK PLCs. So, having a really good time.
[0:04:22] David Green: And a nice contrast, the lottery and banking?
[0:04:25] Sharon Doherty: Yeah, absolutely. Both very digital, though, these days. So, everything's technology.
[0:04:33] David Green: Well, we caught up a couple of months ago, and I know you shared with me that Lloyds has been through, and obviously I've seen in the press as well, Lloyds has been through a significant transformation in recent years, which I imagine made it a really exciting opportunity for you to go to. How would you describe that journey and what role, and I know it's a central role, what role has the people and places functions played in making it happen?
[0:04:55] Sharon Doherty: I'm always trying to figure out how do you get people to remember things. So, the sort of three roles I would say I've had as I've really stepped into this role: firstly, a storyteller; secondly, a tough-lover; and then thirdly, a disruptor. And the storyteller, I think, is a great role for people in people and places type roles to have, because when you're joining a big organisation, and let's remember Lloyds, 80000 people, yes, mostly the UK, but also India, some of Europe, and over in New York, so you've got a lot of people. And although it's an amazing organisation, very much sort of an icon in the UK, it really needed a big reboot. It's big, a lot needs to happen, so you need to figure out how do you take the whole organisation, and your customers actually, on a journey with you. And so, the journey that I talk about internally is sort of past, the decade before we got here, where it was a very tough decade and a group of people saved the bank, but they did lose market share; and then, we're in the next decade and the present chapter finishes the end of '26, and that's been very much about the transformation or the reboot of Lloyds; and then, we're just about to head into the future, and we'll talk mid this year about our next chapter.
So, at a macro level, how do you talk about that journey? And actually, when you find an organisation with people who've been in it for a long time, you can't just think you're day one. You have to learn, understand, and be really respectful about what you're inheriting, and then make sense of how you transform it. And then, the tough love is about, yes, there's always some good things you need to do, but actually in transformation, there's tough things. And some of that's about conversations and some of that's about big programmes of transformation. And then, the disruptor. I mean, that's all the way through, but now more than ever in terms of the AI transformation, that imagining pretty much everybody listening into this will feel like they're in the middle of. So, those are the roles. And the journey has been just such a privilege really, new brand, new app delivered for our customers and our investors on that journey. And the people and places part role in that has been all consuming, really. And it's everything from change the people, so keeping the best of Lloyds; but then, within 18 months, 70% of the executive team were new, within two years, 60% of the top 300 were new, and by the end of this chapter, so four years, 40% of the organisation new.
So, a lot of change, a lot of OD. For us, that was in particular in technology, every function, but particularly technology, where we went from a big central organisation to 40 platforms, two in a box, really sort of implemented scaled agile, which has massively given us a competitive advantage and helped us serve our customers better. And then, into every policy, put performance management back in, dealt with compressed legacy issues that we had on scale, rewired, reward, ten new buildings and I'm sure we'll talk about that, vibey, recognition in, and, and, and. So, a real sort of, as I said, reboot of the organisation, because we were almost a legacy bank becoming the biggest fintech in the UK, because we have 23 million digital customers. We have 50% of UK adults having a relationship with us. So, we run deep into UK PLC in particular. So, yeah, a big, big journey for the organisation, for our customers, but also for our people inside that. And balancing transformation, taking people with you has been loads of learning. You can feel the impact, and a real privilege to be part of.
[0:09:05] David Green: You've been busy!
[0:09:06] Sharon Doherty: Yeah, we have!
[0:09:09] David Green: And what was interesting listening to you, Sharon, we'll talk about a bit more about managing a transformation of that scale, I hear from, and we don't always hear from HR leaders, you didn't just mention employees and workers, you didn't just mention the leadership team and the board, you talked about investors as stakeholders and customers as stakeholders as well. Maybe talk to that a little bit from a kind of Chief People and Places Officer perspective. You had to be able think about all your stakeholders as well. And I guess with Lloyds, with its iconic position in the UK market as well, you're thinking from a societal perspective as well.
[0:09:46] Sharon Doherty: Yeah, because remember, Chief People and Places Officer is an executive member. So, the first hat you wear is you sit around the table and you help design and deliver the business strategy. And business strategies are always about multi stakeholders. And so, you're always having to figure out what are the right trade-offs that you make to ensure that there's a really good balance in an organisation. And I think a good HR Director wears all of those hats as well, but definitely has to wear the people hat.
[0:10:20] David Green: This episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast is sponsored by TechWolf. The world of work is being rewritten faster than HR systems can keep up. Skills age in months, roles get redesigned quarter by quarter, CHROs have quietly become AI transformation leads, and the data they need to lead it doesn't exist in any HR system. That's why the world's most forward-looking enterprises have built on TechWolf. TechWolf is the data layer for the AI era of work. It connects three data sets that have never lived together, the skills your workforce has, how their work is changing under AI, and where the labour market is heading. Skills intelligence, work intelligence, and market intelligence in one layer. HSBC, AMD, T-Mobile, GSK, ServiceNow, Pfizer, and many more rely on TechWolf to deliver measurable impact, including cutting time to a unified skills foundation from 18 months to three, servicing 800-plus deployable internal candidates in under 30 days, and unlocking more than $8 million in projected L&D savings at one global biopharma. If skills, work, and labour market data is what's standing between your enterprise and its AI transformation, talk to TechWolf, the data layer for the AI era of work. Visit techwolf.AI.
Give a sense, when you're leading a transformation of this scale, and it is a significant transformation, talking to your peers in other organisations, it's one of the most significant that I've heard about actually, to be honest with you, how do you know where to start? What do you prioritise? And what are some of the biggest calls? You talked about the tough love piece there. What are some of the biggest calls that only leadership can make?
[0:12:27] Sharon Doherty: So, look, I wish I knew exactly what the formula is. But when you walk into a company, you need to spend a good amount of time getting out and about. As you walk in, I would say the first thing you should do is you need to meet an organisation where it is. So, there's a big sort of listen, learn, be incredibly inquisitive and curious about not just what's going on, but why. So, you're always trying to find patterns and systems to sort of figure out what new patterns and systems that you might need to make, and actually which ones are really good and you want to keep and amplify. And probably the biggest tip that I would give is that pretty much everything in companies needs to start at the top. Yeah, not all good ideas, but certainly the tone and the culture. And so, we created an amazing executive team, put tons and tons of effort into who's in the team, how they work together, and then how that top 300 work together. And so, we did pretty substantive cultural programmes with them in a way that they'd not experienced before, quite personally intrusive, in groups of 30, 40.
So, we did three in this chapter. We call them Grow with Purpose, so real sort of cultural interventions. And then, if I take something like AI, again, started at the top, worked through, taking our senior teams to Cambridge on a six-month programme. So, whatever it is, transformation, our next transformation is the AI transformation, if the people at the top don't get it, don't lead it In the right way, then typically it's really tough for people inside the organisation to make it work. But then, there are always the fast adopters. And so, we have 10,000 lists inside Lloyds. So, people that whatever we're doing with the senior people, we do programmes that they go through each year and then they go out into different parts of the organisation, and sort of share the messages and motivate and bring ideas in a different way.
So, you've got to sort of figure out how do you mobilise your organisation as you move forward? And prioritising, I think for me, I always start with a why and figure out the story. You'll love data and our data now, when it comes to things like FTE, finance, and HR, they're all one version of the truth. So, a massive journey. But when I first joined, I'd heard from the HR directors that data was just not where you would want it to be. And in my first week, by the end of the week, I said, "Give me a folder with this type of data in", because I was just desperate to see what they had and what they didn't have. And then, for probably the first three months, every Friday, I got a paper document, became a PowerPoint document, and then that's ultimately become a Google Cloud platform. And I did that because, again, people tell you all sorts of things, which is good, and you have to listen. But actually, the right data doesn't lie. And so, trying to figure out what were people's belief systems versus what the data really told you was really important. So, that was always going to be something.
Your point about big calls, so you never know what they're going to be. And when you turn up somewhere, you find out things. This was through data. We found out that we had over 10,000 people working compressed hours, so a four-day week or a nine-day fortnight. And we stood back and said, "Is this something we want to do across the whole company? Do we think this would be the right thing to do for our customers?" And actually, we concluded that that wasn't the case, because customers want you 24/7. And our people in branches are working very unsocial hours versus some of us in HQ-type roles. So, we took a decision that wasn't true. But you can imagine saying to 10,000 people that you're calling time on something, and then to the rest of the organisation that 1,000 a year were being added to that. And so, our eNPS went from +23 to -31, and it went into the press and to the regulator, and people were not happy, but it sent a signal. It was very symbolic of actually, we're here to serve customers and we need to become a high-performing organisation, and the people in headquarter roles need to support those serving customers. And that's why we're here.
The good news is, that big journey we've been on, our eNPS now has gone back up to +23. So, these are quite tough calls that you make. And it's always easy to, "I should kick the can down the road", when you see these tough things. And my advice is almost, the most difficult things, do first because nobody ever gets to the end of a change programme and says, "I wish I'd gone slower". You always say, "I wish I'd gone faster". And actually, when you first arrive, the big and tough calls, sometimes you get licensed to make them. Whereas the longer you're there, it almost gets harder, because you get more used to the ways of working in an organisation. So, I would say that really sort of said we meant business in terms of the transformation of Lloyds. And I would say our organisation has gone on a tough but a really good journey with us on that.
Then, we put in flexibility work. So, we actually probably have one of the best flexible programmes in the UK. So, you can work a four-day week, flexible summer. So, you can get to work for anywhere for six weeks. So, we have a fantastic package, but now everybody gets access to it rather than a small group of people. And that's the tough love. So, it was tough to make that call, but actually we put something incredibly progressive, that was much fairer for a bigger group of people, in place. So, so yeah, that was probably the toughest call made in the first few months.
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AI, it's kind of the topic du jour. It's more than the topic du jour, actually, isn't it? And again, we talked about some of the work that you've been doing through the People and Places team at Lloyds Banking Group and the partnership I think you've got with the CTO there, when we called up a couple of months ago. It's a major topic for every organisation, particularly a prominent, iconic brand like Lloyds Banking Group, particularly the industry you're in as well. What have you done at Lloyds and how is it changing the way that you think about work, about skills, and about OD?
[0:21:06] Sharon Doherty: So, probably about two-and-a-half years ago, the executive team were over in Seattle with Satya and visiting others, trying to figure out what this new technology was all about. And then, a year later, we were in Canada. And in between, we went to school to learn. And that really helped. And actually, I would say our senior team are quite tech savvy. So, people got very quickly the opportunities, particularly the growth opportunities that this could create, the innovation opportunities this could create, to allow us to differentiate and step change at pace. Then, we put our top 300 through a Cambridge Spark programme, so that was the six-month programme. And they have digital, AI ninjas that then help them one to one. Then, we launched our AI Academy, soft launch last year, and then a full companywide launch this year. And in the first quarter, 100,000 courses completed. And what we see is those people that are hands on with it, and actually pretty much 80% of the organisation has run towards it, the engagement scores massively improve. So, people feel like they've got agency and superpowers that they didn't have.
We've put it in the hands of about 40,000 of our frontline people, so they're using different tools. Probably don't really think about it as AI. They think about it as their workflows have just got easier and they can serve customers better. So, we are way, way into that journey from a sort of educating. We also, in our first year, we had 50 use cases. And then, this year, we started with 12 big bets and over 100 use cases. Generally, our frame on AI is about how it will help us grow and differentiate. That's a little different to some others. And so, we're really excited to have a sort of live test with real customer use cases now on Invest AI. So, how do you democratise investment when only 10% of the UK gets access to it? So, massive opportunity. Coach AI. So, in our app that's got 23 million customers using it, we're testing how do you be able to help people inside a safe environment, answer questions about money advice, which people really, really want? And of course, in an LLM outside a bank, they can tell you anything because they're not regulated, whereas our environments are. And so, the advice we give has to be really good advice with the right regulation and support over it. And, and, and, including one of them being a super agent that will work across all corporate functions that we're leading. And I'm sure we'll talk about that.
So, we sort of got stuck into the work. So, a lot of leadership, a lot of training, got stuck into real work. And I think we're sort of looking at it in at least two ways at the moment. One is in those units of work that are involved in really differentiating projects, the big bets, we're very much looking at what is the squad makeup? How do those teams need to work? And we have re-engineering and re-imagining playbooks that we have been creating, live documents that we're learning on all the time. And then, we're just starting to think about so, yes, those are the big bets, but what about the day-to-day and lots of other functions? And we're starting to think about how, when we think about AI stealing with pride from organisations like Google and Microsoft and Salesforce that we've been engaging with, they talk about people who are literate, fluent, and native. And trying to find in other functions the people that are native, who are being an HR business partner or an accountant or a lawyer, and actually what they're doing is changing their workflows using agents that we've put in their hands, so we've deployed the tools at scale across our organisation; then, we're trying to find those people and then watch them and then figure out what they're doing and how and why, and then scale that back into larger groups.
So, you've almost got this sort of controlled big bets, but then more viral learning from people that there will always be people that are further ahead, and they're always surprising people. This isn't tech people, this is people that are actually using it to do their day-in, day-out work in all parts of the business. So, we're doing that. And look, I think it's really early days, but you'll hear us all talking about that shift from the triangle to the diamond. I think you'll hear the shift from people focusing on one skill that as they get augmented, actually they could go deep on two or three, and that looks really different. So, everybody is at the foothills. And so, again, that sort of learning culture and learning organisation, I think it's really sort of, I mean, that's just a deal-breaker. If you're not figuring out how you're going to work in that constant learning and review way, then you'll be on the track. And then, in six months, it will be the wrong track.
So, yeah, a lot going on and we really appreciate some of the fantastic networks we've been able to get into to learn from, so that we can then bring it back into the organisation and experiment to scale.
[0:27:01] David Green: Super-impressive. And particularly, just pull one thing out. We did some research at Insight222 towards the end of last year, predominantly with people analytics leaders, but really trying to understand what were the companies that were pushing the envelope with AI, being led through HR, what were they doing differently? And the clear thing was, not surprisingly, having a clearly-defined strategy, which you clearly articulated you have at Lloyds Banking Group; but also, that role-modelling from leaders, not just in HR, across the organisation. So, the fact that you've enabled the top 300 is super-impressive. I'd love to learn a bit more about this super agent, Sharon, that you're leading across all your group functions, from a people and places perspective.
[0:27:49] Sharon Doherty: Yeah. So, I think the transformation that we've been on in people and places, so clearly at one level it's been not just about AI, because that's come probably, in a substantive way, in the last 12, 18 months. So, we've completely rebooted the function. And I have an amazing team, and I'm just incredibly grateful of the work that they've done. Whenever you're doing a big transformation, the HR team are always involved in any difficult work and any exciting work. So, there's nothing that happens in a company that an HR team aren't involved in in some way, and particularly when it's difficult work. So, we've been on that journey of transformation. The AI and the digital side of it has increasingly been a big part, but we were really early adopters with ServiceNow. And so, probably a year ago, we were one of the first in the world to have our HR help desk powered by generative AI. And that, again, coming back to things that are close to your heart, that involved a lot of data cleanup. So, we were quite early versus other corporate functions in actually really getting a brilliant base case for a generative AI to sit on top of. And now, that got us to a place where we've brought together all corporate functions, and with the tech team that we work with in a control tower, myself and the CTO work together month in, month out on what are the use cases and what are the things we need to put in place to make this work.
Then, with the team, we're working across all the functions to say, "How can you put an AGI super agent on top of that?" And we're working actually with Microsoft at the moment. So, again, we're ready, we're just waiting for the Microsoft technology to be ready. And we've got use cases across clearly the work we've done. But then also, supply chain, buildings, which is expenses, all of those things, which are just really ripe as a wave one. But then we're also getting into coaching, training, and some of the sort of more growth value-add areas as well. So, this year, we'll be launching that. And then, you go on a one-, two-, three-year journey to just sort of get further ahead on it.
[0:30:31] David Green: There's so much noise about AI. How do you decide what to do next, especially as I said, so much noise, so much pressure, maybe sometimes too much experimentation all happening at the same time? It's about focus, I'm guessing?
[0:30:48] Sharon Doherty: Yeah, so look, I alluded. So, first of all, you've got to sort of set yourself up. Because this isn't like a sprint and then you're done. This is the rest of your life sort of thing. And so, you need to figure out how you're going to govern it, at least for the first few years, until it becomes just what we do everywhere, and then it will become much more integrated. And so, we have a control tower that myself and the GCOO, so the executive member accountable for technology, manage month in and month out. We have an ethics committee that I'm part of. We then have figured out what's the work that is most important for our company. We're very disciplined on how we measure success, so we don't throw out big numbers, just sort of putting the kitchen sink in with it. We're very thoughtful about value so that we can really make sure we're getting value, rather than chasing headlines. And so, we've been very disciplined on measurement and impact for our customers, whether those are employees or end customers. So, we've set that up.
Then, I think we have a mindset which is, we have real conviction about this, so we're all in. We believe that this is a positive technology that, with the right guardrails, can demonstrably create value for UK PLC as well as for our organisation. And it is a stimulator of things that we've dreamed about in the past, but now the technology can enable us to get to places that we probably couldn't get to before. So, we have the conviction of that, but we also have flexibility that some of the decisions that we might make in a quarter or two weren't quite the right ones, and we stay very agile in that. And then, as I talked about, in different ways, we have networks. I'm in networks, the CTO's in networks, the business leaders are in networks, to try and understand where a path is going. And actually, Sandra Durth, who you had on here, amazing, and actually we have a relationship with Sandra, and keep talking to learning from. So, you've sort of got to do that, because things are changing. And so, you've got to have your tentacles in a broader base of ideas and thoughts, so that then, through your governance and strategy processes, you can make decisions that can potentially have really big impact.
Then, I think you have to let people play. And look, generally my hypothesis on this, the technology is the easy bit. The rewiring of an organisation, organisations, and even society is going to take much longer. So, we shouldn't panic, but we definitely need to be right in the front of the queue in learning, understanding, experimenting, and having plans to scale. And so, I can see increasingly more and more businesses are there. But it's easier if you start and even if it's small things, learn, and your confidence grows, then you wait. And then suddenly, you're going to feel very left behind. So, get going and have conviction, but be prepared to pivot and flex as you learn.
[0:34:46] David Green: Very good. And the two real opportunities for HR people and places functions, I guess, is leading that organisational transformation for the business, but also looking at ourselves. And I know that you've been doing a significant transformation of people and places at Lloyds Banking Group. I'd love to hear your thoughts, Sharon, what work do HR teams, do you feel, need to do differently now? And how are you preparing your function for the future?
[0:35:14] Sharon Doherty: So, look, I believe if you've got a bold vision for your organisation, you have to drink your own champagne or eat your own dog food, whatever you like to do.
[0:35:26] David Green: Champagne's probably nicer than dog food, I think!
[0:35:29] Sharon Doherty: I don't drink. So, it's sort of sparkling water! So, anything we do, we go first. And so, when I first came in, we didn't have offshoring inside the organisation, so we went first on that. Training and development, we went first with things like deal day. So, every quarter, the whole function, I have about 1,700 people, most stop and just do learning together, and then we learn from that. And then, AI. So, we've gone early to learn so that you can then say, "Okay, what is it we're learning from that, that you put back in?" And it's quite painful, because it means like you're having to try everything. And that can be performance management, or hitting diversity. So, there is a sort of, if you're asking a company to do something, then you're not going to be perfect at everything, but you need to be an adopter and you need to go first 1so that you understand it.
So, we've, in lots of different ways, done that. And actually, it's probably moved from feeling very painful, because we were the first to go with the compressed, yeah, and that felt very painful. But I would say now, the team sort of get it. And actually, everything is a pilot inside our own organisation before we scale it. I think the work that I think we're going to increasingly have to do is work that we should have always been doing. So, for me, I am just so excited, because I think in the old days, it was easy for HR functions to get caught up in the wrong work and feel important, but actually not really be having an impact on your business. And I think now, if we, as an HR function are not, I think we'll get sidelined, because this is now so business-critical that CEOs and executives teams just can't deal with an HR function that isn't doing the work that they need them to do. And look, I think the work that we should have always been doing, but now we have to go up a gear on, I mean, we talk about capacity, capability, and culture.
So, capacity, size and shape of your organisation today, tomorrow, the work that will be done in it, the workflows that will be done in it. That now is business-critical work that we have to be running towards and be all over. I think capability, I think we've all been talking about skills-based organisations for probably again too long, and now that shift is real. And so, really understanding the tasks people are doing, the skills they need to do those tasks, and what their proficiency is, and how fast can they learn other skills, and what are those other skills that they need to learn, and how do you move people around the organisation, and when do you go external to hire in organisations that are going to become more productive with the tools that we've got, even with growth, but we have a responsibility to our talented people to be getting them fit for the future? So, that work has always been important, but now is business critical.
Then, the culture work that we do, ultimately, culture always eats everything for breakfast. And if we don't get our organisations, then the people in them, running towards being hands-on with AI and being early adopters and becoming people that see learning as what they do as part of their day job and being more agile and more creative, I mean there's a lot of change that will happen that we, again, have talked about in our function for a long time, but now we've absolutely got to do. And what I would say is there's never been a time that's been more exciting to be in this function.
[0:39:50] David Green: I know, Sharon, again, when we spoke a couple of weeks ago, you mentioned that you've moved a significant part of the people and places organisations into a platform model. Can you share a little bit about what that actually means in practice, because I think that's something that will inspire quite a lot of listeners?
[0:40:06] Sharon Doherty: Yeah, so look, I think at one level, not much changes, but everything changes. So, I mean, we still in Lloyds have HR business partners. I think as you go forward, they become more performance orchestrators. We have centres of expertise smaller, then they become almost work architects. And then what you might have seen as the old, shared service, we think about as an experience hub. As we move forward, over half of my function will be in an experience hub, so much deeper than you might have thought. And in that hub, and what's really happening there that's quite different, and I think is going to evolve even further, partly we do have a habit as a function to build things even if people don't need them. So, customer journey managers, leaders that really have the skills of almost those that are building customer products. I think we're seeing from a tech point of view, in the old days, you might have bought SaaS products, and actually now, you've got capability in there that can build them. So, I think there's some really interesting things that are going to be happening for software companies.
Then, I think the conversations that we're having with the technology function is actually, some of the new tools now, it's much more in configuration rather than it's hardcore technology. And so, where does the line get drawn in that platform model, where the people team can actually do that work?" And then, you let the tech team do the really sort of hardcore tech. So, we're on that journey. What that does is it allows you to know what your people need, deliver better end-to-end experience in a more efficient and effective way with more wow in it.
[0:42:09] David Green: You mentioned that you've led people and places now for much of your senior career. I think it's the third time that you've done this. I had Phil Kircshner, who I think you know as well, who was on the podcast recently, and he's a real advocate for putting the people and places part together. I'd love to hear your kind of experience of that. Why does place matter so much to the CHRO agenda, and why should more HR leaders demand responsibility for it?
[0:42:36] Sharon Doherty: Yeah, and actually, demand is quite funny because when I came in, Charlie, my CEO, Charlie Nunn was going to put it somewhere else. And I said, "I'm not coming if you don't give it to me", because I feel that strongly about it, particularly at the stage of where Lloyds was at, which it needed an absolute reboot. So, there's a massive opportunity to use the buildings to make Lloyds feel like a fintech. And if you came into our buildings, I think you did, didn't you?
[0:43:06] David Green: I did, yeah, a few weeks ago, yeah.
[0:43:08] Sharon Doherty: I mean, they feel fantastic. I mean, they're funky. So, I think the reason you get your hands on them is that you could just control massively more of the experience that your employees have. And that's the same with the getting more hands-on with the end-to-end corporate digital experience. So, rather than just staying in the sort of people part of it, anything that touches all employees digitally, you should be in that. Clearly, finance still make decisions, but how do you facilitate end-to-end? And it's the same with the buildings, so it's a massive part of the experience. So, make sure you've got a really big part to play in it. So, for me, that's why it was a non-negotiable. And we brought the brand in, we brought experience in, and people love our buildings. In fact, we bring other banks in and we bring government in, and they're like, "How do you get the vibe?" And of course, there's a formula on how you get the vibe. And when you've got your hands on it, you can make sure that the formula is implemented.
I think, though, you also get credibility because out with the Tech Director, I have the next biggest budget. And so, that gives you quite a lot of flexibility, if I'm really honest. And when I came in, the budget was X, and now the budget is Y, which it's gone down. We've done more, we've done it faster, and we've done it better.
[0:44:40] David Green: Sharon, this is the question of the serious. This is one we're asking all guests on this series of the podcast. And I think it talks to a lot of what we've already talked about today. Where should HR leaders start if they want to turn AI into real impact at work?
[0:44:54] Sharon Doherty: Yeah, so look, I think you always start with yourself. So, you've got to figure out how you educate yourself so that you know what you're doing, because otherwise you're saying things and they're probably not the right things. And then, I think we talked about how do you get that senior team on the right journey, and then how do you put the right governance in place, so that you can decide what the right strategy is? So, I think you've got to do that if you really want to figure out what's the right way forward.
[0:45:32] David Green: Yeah, very good. So, let's look ahead. Actually, I did look back on the questions that I asked you on that episode all the way back in 2019. Let's look ahead seven years, and I won't hold you to this. So, if we pitch forward seven years, so what's that, 2033? What do you think the world of work and the role of the CHRO will look like?
[0:45:53] Sharon Doherty: So, look, the first thing is like, who knows?
[0:45:58] David Green: That's the right answer, yeah!
[0:45:59] Sharon Doherty: Yeah, I haven't got a clue. Anyone that says they have are fibbing. But look, I think the world that we're going to operate in is highly likely to stay as, if not become more uncertain. And so, whatever we're doing, we have to build an organisation that is going to be able to deal with these black-swan events almost happening every year. They used to happen every ten years. And how do you build the culture, the skills, the resilience that our organisations are going to be able to do that? I was with Google and they talked about three things that really sort of captured my imagination. And they talked about the world's going to become hyper-personalised, hyper-productive, and hyper-creative. So inside organisations, we are just going to have the tools to be able to build products for one, and our people are going to be augmented to be highly productive. But the role of humans, at least that we can see right now, is how do we really bring that creativity? Because I think we can all see with AI, it's scraping what is known and presents what we know, as opposed to what we haven't thought about yet. Now, that might change, but sitting here today, we will still bring the creativity. And so, how do we build a workforce that does that?
Look, I think that the role of HR, we need to be thinking we are reinventing organisations and the ways of working in them. We are disrupting ourselves and disrupting our organisations for the good of our investors and customers and people and communities, we talked about as well. We're going to have to be massively much more in workflows than we have been, and figuring out talent that can really work in this new way; how do we grow, keep, find, and make them want to come and work in our organisation, to a much higher degree than the sort of skills war that we talked about in the '90s? It just sort of really feels like, at least for a few years until it gets scaled, what stays human? How do we make sure the ethics of this journey are the ones that we would be proud of as we look back on the time that we have, doing the work that we do? Will we create the organisations that we can be proud of, with people working in them in a way that is fulfilling and is having a positive impact on society?
I think you can see all the different views on that, and sometimes, people perhaps are too negative. And how do we create opportunities and a positive way through that? And I think some of the skills that we have and the thought processes we have could actually create different futures for our people and for our organisations.
[0:49:20] David Green: I totally agree. And, it's so important that without sounding clichéd, it's so important that we don't forget what the H in HR stands for, and the P in people and places, or the first P in people and places stands for as well. Sharon, thanks so much for being a guest on the Digital HR Leaders podcast again. So, episode one, and this will probably be about episode 300-and-something, I think. So, you'll definitely get an invite back, Sharon. Thanks so much.
[0:49:45] Sharon Doherty: All right. No, a real pleasure. You take care.
[0:49:49] David Green: Thank you again, Sharon, for joining me today. It really was an illuminating conversation and one I think that will resonate with listeners who are in the middle of their own transformation journeys right now. For those of you that are listening, I'm curious, what stood out for you the most from today's episode? Was it Sharon's three-roles framework: the storyteller, the tough-lover, the disruptor; the way Lloyds is approaching AI governance; or just the reminder that transformation at scale is possible if you're willing to make the tough calls? Whatever it was, find my LinkedIn post about this episode and let me know in the comments. I read every single one, and the conversations that happen there often add to the ones we have on the show. And if you think a colleague or friend would get something out of this episode, please do share it with them. It really does help us bring more of these conversations to HR professionals across the world.
One last thing before we go, for those who would like to keep up with what we're working on at Insight222, follow us on LinkedIn or head to insight222.com. You can also sign up for our biweekly newsletter at myHRfuture.com, to get the latest thinking on HR, people analytics, and everything shaping our field. Right, that's us for this episode. Thanks for listening, and we'll be back next week with another episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast. Until then, take care and stay well.