Episode 237: Uncertainty as an Opportunity: HR’s Role in Shaping the Future of Work (with Peter Hinssen)
What if the chaos around us isn’t a threat, but your organisation’s greatest advantage?
In this thought-provoking episode, futurist and innovation expert Peter Hinssen returns to The Digital HR Leaders Podcast to join host David Green in an exploration of why uncertainty is no longer the exception but the new normal, and how HR can lead the way in turning disruption into momentum.
Based on insights from his new book The Uncertainty Principle, Peter challenges traditional thinking and shares a bold vision for how organisations - and their people leaders - can thrive in the “never-normal.”
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Why uncertainty is the new strategic advantage, and how to “weaponise” it
The biggest myth HR believes about change, and why it’s holding us back
AI’s promise vs. reality and why early adoption often falls short
How to unlock HR’s most underutilised asset: unstructured data
Real-world phoenixes - organisations rising stronger through disruption
The new HR mindset and how it’s redefining talent, leadership, and foresight
Purchase Peter's book on The Uncertainty Principle
This episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast is brought to you by Mercer.
[0:00:06] David Green: Think back for a moment. When was the last time you felt like you really had a hand on what was coming next? For many of us, the pace of change has become so relentless, so unpredictable, that it feels like we're constantly running to stand still. Economic uncertainty, skills shortages, geopolitical upheaval, and the AI hype cycle, there is a lot going on in the world. But what if instead of trying to outpace change, we learn to work with it? I'm David Green, and today on the Digital HR Leaders podcast, I sit down with someone who's been helping leaders rethink disruption for years, Peter Hinssen, Serial Entrepreneur, Co-Founder of Nexxworks, and author of six books, including The Phoenix and The Unicorn, and the recently published, The Uncertainty Principle.
Peter, who describes himself as a pathological optimist, doesn't just talk about the future, he challenges how we think about it. And today, in his conversation with me, he shares why embracing uncertainty is an absolute necessity. We talk about the traps organisations fall into when trying to control the uncontrollable, and what it really takes for HR to lead in this era of the never normal. We'll dive into what's slowing AI adoption down, how HR can finally unlock the value in all that unstructured data we're sitting on, and the small mindset shifts that can make a huge difference. So, wherever you're listening from, whether you're walking, on your commute, or with a strong cup of coffee, this one's for anyone trying to make sense of the chaos and find new ways to lead through it. And with that, let's get started.
Peter, welcome back to the show. It's great to have you with us again. If I remember last time we recorded the episode, it was 2020, it was March, and I think Belgium had just announced lockdown. I think you were over to do some lecturing in London, and we joked with you that they would never shut the pubs in the UK. Well, they did two weeks later. For those listeners who might be meeting you for the first time, could you give us a quick introduction to you and maybe a flavour of some of the work that you've been doing recently?
[0:02:26] Peter Hinssen: Thank you very much, David, for having me on the podcast. Really appreciate it and always enjoy working together, which we do from time to time. So, Peter Hinssen, I'm a technologist by training, I'm an engineer, computer scientist. I did startups when I was younger. I actually did three startups back-to-back in the early parts of my career, first one acquired by Alcatel, second one by Vodafone, and third was a company that we IPO'd. And then, I did a radical shift 15 years ago, I wanted to do something different with my life. I started teaching at London Business School, which I still do; I became a fellow at MIT Sloan; I started writing a few books. I wrote a book, called The New Normal, a long time ago, 15 years ago, about what happens when digital becomes normal.
Ironically, I've been focused a lot on technology and innovation, but I think, I don't know, it's maybe getting older or whatever, but I think the older I get, the more I'm interested in the human side of things. And the last two books, the previous one was called The Phoenix and Unicorn, about how companies can transform themselves, and technology is a leverage mechanism, but I had, I think, more attention to what culture and leadership does. And there's a new book coming out, which is called The Uncertainty Principle, and that is, I think, quite different from the previous books. It's really all focused on that softer side of things, I think, that leadership and culture side of things, which I think is the absolute trick to understand this world that we're in today.
[0:03:55] David Green: Perfect. And I know, obviously, from having worked with you at UNLEASH in particular, that your thinking and your work really resonates with HR leaders and professionals. And we're going to be digging into The Uncertainty Principle today, and we will probably talk about The Never Normal, and we will talk about The Phoenix and The Unicorn as well. So, really looking forward to it. If you had to sum up the current business climate in one phrase, what would it be?
[0:04:20] Peter Hinssen: I think I can do it in one word. So, I was born in Belgium and then grew up in the US, and then I live back in Europe now. But I think there's part of an American vocabulary that I had access to as a child. And there's one word that I really love, it's 'snafu'. And there's a lot of Americans who use that from time to time like, "Oh, we hit a snafu or", and it's a word that everybody knows, but very few people don't realise it's an acronym. It's actually a military acronym and it stands for Situation Normal All Fucked Up! And this is the best description of the world today that I have ever heard.
[0:05:02] David Green: That's great! And that kind of leads nicely to your new book, Peter, called The Uncertainty Principle. You talk about weaponising uncertainty, but can you tell us a little bit more about this?
[0:05:14] Peter Hinssen: When I wrote the previous book, and I think you're right, it was launched just before COVID hit, it was a book on reinvention. And I think during COVID, we had massive changes and turmoil and fundamental different ways of looking at things. I think a lot of people were expecting, post-COVID, for things to return to the old normal, and that just didn't happen. And I started developing this concept of The Never Normal during that period. It was funny, because when I wrote that first book, The New Normal, people kept asking me, "Oh, wow, what's the new, new normal?" because the original new normal was digital, right, what happens if digital becomes normal? And then after that, people said, "Oh, what's the next new normal? What's the new, new normal?" And then I thought, "I don't know, is it networks, is it social, is it mobile, is it cloud, whatever?" And then, I started to realise it's probably not one thing, it's a combination, and it's probably never going to be normal again.
We're entering this world of constant volatility, and I started calling that the never normal. And that means that it's not just technological change, it's ecological, environmental, social, geopolitical, all wrapped up, and it just seems to go faster and faster and faster. And that is a very uncomfortable feeling. Many people feel quite anxious about that, because they say, "Oh my God, when is this going to be over?" And then, there's this term called 'liminality', and you've probably heard that many, many times. And I think the first time I heard the word liminality was really during COVID, when people said, "Oh, we're in a liminal period. We know that we can't go back to the way it was, and we're not sure where we're going, and it's like, you're on a bridge and there's fog and you know you're on route to something else". And I think that is completely wrong.
I don't believe in liminality anymore. I think this is going to be the way it is. It's just a world that seems to go faster and accelerate. And this world of uncertainty may be something that we need to understand. It's something that when you look at it, people say, "Oh my God, we have to protect ourselves, we have to mitigate the risk, we have to hedge". I think this is an opportunity to use that. And can you use that as a mechanism to actually become stronger? And that is really what that idea of The Never Normal is about. Mark Zuckerberg recently said, "In today's game, speed isn't optional, it is the strategy". And this is weird, because we're in a situation that we don't really understand with more uncertainty, but at the same time, we feel that we need to move faster and take advantage of that. And that was really the idea of The Uncertainty Principle. And it's really based on three ideas.
It's the necessity to anticipate better than ever before. We need to develop more foresight capabilities, and that doesn't mean planning, it means basically understanding, I think, it's almost like a renaissance of scenario thinking. The second element is adaptability, it's agility. We need to be able to shift faster and shape-shift faster in a world that is constantly changing. And the third is resilience. I think we need to be able to recover from sudden shocks and even become anti-fragile if possible. But that, in an essence, is really the idea behind The Uncertainty Principle, how can you leverage the power of uncertainty?
[0:08:47] David Green: And I mean, there's so much to come on that. And I know you're actually glass half full when it comes to the future and the technology.
[0:08:54] Peter Hinssen: I'm a pathological optimist, yeah.
[0:08:56] David Green: Yeah, that's a nice way of putting it. I like that. I'm curious, what patterns have you seen in how organisations are, and I know you work with a number of organisations around the world, what have you seen in terms of how they're responding to this constant change?
[0:09:12] Peter Hinssen: Well, I think the fascinating thing is that I used the word scenario planning earlier. And I remember when I was a lot younger, I was fascinated by the fact that a company like Shell had this entire scenario planning division. And I think Shell was one of those pioneers. I mean, they were almost like, they invented, I think, that whole element. And what I did in the book is I actually went back and I did my research and I did a whole history of foresight, right? It's really about, how did people look at the future in the past? And I think we might see a renaissance of scenario planning. And I think this is something where, you know, we're still clinging to those old instruments of the past that just really don't make sense anymore. And I take the budget as an example.
I mean, David, I don't know how many companies that you've seen, but I mean I was with a company this morning doing a session with their board, and I asked them about the budget and they said, "Ha, it's insane how much energy that we put in last November. And the moment that Trump announced his tariffs, we could just flush it down the toilet". I mean, the idea of these old instruments don't work anymore. And I think what I see companies now doing is trying to understand their North Star. I think that is still very, very clear. And even in a volatile environment, it just means that your path to get there might be more fluid, you have to be more agile. But getting that North Star, and I think that is what scenario planning is all about. This has been brilliant to see that with companies.
I also like the reflection, what it means in terms of people, because there's one thing about a strategic direction as an organisation, but you also have to get your people on board. You have to make sure that you, in a world where so many things are changing, that you build that narrative where they feel engaged and connected; and at the same time, that you foster the input, the engagement, the critical thinking, the creativity that is more important than ever before. But it's a fascinating new landscape where I think it's an opportunity to reimagine some of the instruments that we've been using for a long time, and I'm really excited about that.
[0:11:31] David Green: It's interesting you mentioned scenario planning. We've had quite a lot of guests on the show who are experts in workforce planning, and we at Insight222 work with lots of organisations as well. And you talked about a renaissance of scenario planning. We're almost seeing a renaissance of workforce planning, and scenario planning obviously is clearly part of that. And as you said, companies need to be doing scenario planning because, let's just take tariffs for example, if tariffs are going to be 10%, then if you're an organisation where a lot of your exports are potentially going into the US, then you need to think, "Okay, well, what's the size of workforce we need for that? What's the budget for that? What if it goes to 20%, 30%, 40%, etcetera?" And that means that HR and finance in particular need to work very closely together, and be able to move quickly, depending on what happens on a particular day, knowing that it might be very different the next day or a week later. So, it's definitely uncertainty, but as you said, if you can anticipate as much as you can, but at least be doing the planning around that, then you're more likely to be agile and resilient to the changes that seem to be happening on a daily basis, I guess.
[0:12:50] Peter Hinssen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think what is fascinating there is that I think we might need to focus on those skills. I think that is going to be a really crucial element to get that right. I mean, for a long time, we've built organisations that are very good at basically doing transitions. They came to the conclusion that they were stuck and they said, "Ah, we need to find a way to get there". And companies today are ideal engines of going from 'as is' to 'to be'. They say, "This is where we are, this is where we have to be", and then the whole transition thing, project planning, project management, KPIs, milestones, that whole shebang is what companies do really, really well. But in a world of the never normal, where there is a constant adaptation, that little trick to go from 'as is' to 'to be', doesn't cut it anymore, and I think we're going to have to rebuild how we're going to build the skills and competencies to be able to do that, to really thrive, not just to survive, not just to make sure that you're there, but you can really thrive. And it's almost like an anti-fragile modelling that you have to do on that never normal.
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What's one common misconception that you find that HR leaders have about uncertainty, and that if perhaps we could do things a little bit differently, if we could correct that, it could significantly unlock progress for the organisations that these leaders work for?
[0:15:26] Peter Hinssen: There's plenty of people in an organisation that really don't like uncertainty. Finance is probably the number one. Ironically, IT doesn't like it either. But I think honestly, I think this should be HR's friend, that's what I fundamentally believe. I think there is a genuine opportunity there for HR professionals to embrace that idea of uncertainty. And there is work to be done, let's be clear, because that uncertainty provides also a lot of anxiety in organisations. I mean, there are a lot of people that just think, "How am I going to cope with this? I mean, how am I going to survive? How am I going to cope with this? I don't know". But I think this is just exactly what I think the calling for HR should be. This is about understanding that there is potential there, and helping people along on that journey is, I think, one of the most beautiful things from an HR point of view. So, I think where your colleagues in finance and IT hate uncertainty, I think it should be your absolute best friend.
[0:16:27] David Green: And again, if you can give an example, you might have to mention it's a technology company, it's a financial service company, I appreciate, are you working or have you seen organisations where HR are doing this effectively?
[0:16:46] Peter Hinssen: Well, I mean, I've been on the board of a media company now for ten years, and it was fascinating because it was a newspaper company when I joined ten years ago. And honestly, when I joined that board ten years ago, many of my friends said, "Are you out of your mind? Nobody reads newspapers anymore. What are you going to do?" And it was very much a paper-based business ten years ago. Today, it's a completely digital business. But the biggest transformation, I don't think was just that our customers were consuming content in a different way. It was also that we had to completely rethink the role of the people that make the content. I mean, the role of a journalist ten years ago was a really comfortable job. I mean, you would do fun stuff. And by 5.00, you had a deadline and you had to make sure that your copy was there. Now, journalists today, I mean, 9.30 in the morning, you want two versions of your copy, and you want to figure out which one is going to be A/B tested, has the best results. And the whole role of media companies has transformed, but the role of work. And I have seen that these companies have been able to do that, where HR has done a brilliant job, in this case, the company that I'm a board member, to really guide that along.
The funny thing is now, ten years later, when many other companies are being hit with disruption and technological fundamental challenges, if they're still going to exist, they're now going back to companies like that to say, "How did you do that? How were you able to get your people along to see this as an opportunity and not a threat?" And honestly today, by the way, it's a never-ending game, because AI is going to transform that role of journalism again, but it's almost that never normal. But I think there's a lot of these examples out there, especially with bits companies. I mean, you have that bits companies and atoms companies. Bits companies is where information is your main carrier. They were disrupted first. But they've actually learned how to do this and also take the workforce along into a new direction. And I think this is something where we can actually learn from.
[0:19:04] David Green: Very good. You mentioned AI. We've done quite well. We've managed to get about nearly 20 minutes into a conversation before we talk about it. So, let's bring it into the picture. You describe it as kind of an accelerant for the never normal. But many companies that we speak to, we work with, and many out there, they seem stuck between inflated expectations and pilot fatigue. What's really going wrong with early AI adoption; and are there examples of where it's going right?
[0:19:34] Peter Hinssen: Well, I mean, I fully understand that voice. I see companies every single day, probably the same with you, and the phrase I hear the most is, "Copilot doesn't work". And it's true, in most companies, Copilot doesn't work. And I think the reason is that a lot of people expect that you would just use an AI tool and it would just work out of the box. That is a complete delusion. And I think the companies that have done really well or are doing really well are the companies that have built a foundation that have really been able to leverage the power of knowledge and content out there. It's not just data. And I take one example.
I mean, I know the team quite well that at McKinsey, built their own AI tool, now the famous Lilli tool, and the same thing happened. McKinsey said, "Okay, we need to use AI". They started to use AI tools out of the box; no results, I mean no productivity gains. And then they realised, "We're going to have to put in the work". And then, it took them a year-and-a-half really to take all the knowledge from McKinsey for the last 25 years and to be able to understand, classify, feed, train, mould that into a tool. And now, their consultants are seeing productivity gains 10%, 20%, 30% even. And I think what it shows is that there is, I think, an absolute disaster out there with a lot of very disappointed companies, because they thought it would just happen miraculously, out of the box. It doesn't. You need to understand that spectrum of AI, everything from data to content; you need to build that architecture to be able to feed that; and then you need to change the roles.
Many companies have a relatively good data science capabilities, they have data engineers and data analysts. I think to understand that full spectrum of AI, you need to understand the content side as well, the unstructured side. And that means that you need maybe content engineers and content analysts. That's what McKinsey did. And I think this is where I see many companies struggling, out of the box, no results, only disappointments. But I do believe that if you put in the work, you can get great results. I also believe that it's also a matter of time, because there is now a generation of students that are studying right now that are just AI-native that use these tools, have been using them for the last two-and-a-half years, that are going to enter the markets very soon. And I think they're probably going to hunt down the 35-year-olds who, at this moment, are just trying to get to Friday evening and don't have time to really understand how to use these tools. So, I think it's a matter of time, but it's also a matter of making sure that you have the foundations right.
[0:22:19] David Green: One of the things we've seen at Insight222, when we're researching companies that are using AI and HR, we're seeing them investing certainly in skills, so they can actually do this work; we're seeing them investing in governance and responsible AI and ethics; but we're also seeing them invest at last in data quality and data foundations, because certainly if you're using the internal data within the organisation, you can't do good AI unless you've got good data. We've been talking about this in people analytics for over a decade now, but it's almost like AI is acting as the Trojan horse to get companies to actually invest in doing this effectively. I don't know if this is something you're seeing as well.
[0:22:58] Peter Hinssen: Yeah, absolutely. I think we share this belief that data is really the way to unlock that. I think we also share the frustration that maybe we would have thought it would have happened sooner. I always make the comparison. I think when you look at the digital transformation that happened 10, 15 years ago, I think the most impacted of any part of an organisation was the marketing side of things, because the way you had to understand customers became fundamentally different. And if you would walk into any marketing department and take a time machine, walk into a marketing department 20 years ago, it would look very different from a marketing department today. Today, marketing is data-driven, it's data-informed, it has analytical capabilities, it understands patterns, and is now leveraging AI because they have the foundation. But digital transformed marketing. Digital did not transform HR. And I think AI could be that catalyst. I think AI could be that, you call it a Trojan horse, but I think it's really that leverage opportunity that you have, but I think this could be that really transforms HR in the same way that marketing did 10, 15 years ago.
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Most of HR's data is unstructured. Performance conversations, exit interviews, skills data feedback, survey comments, one-to-ones, etc. How can HR teams start to unlock the power of that data in a more meaningful way?
[0:25:46] Peter Hinssen: Well, I fundamentally agree. So, there is a lot more unstructured information than there is just the pure, raw structured data. And I think this is where you really have to understand AI is a spectrum. It's a combination of structured data and unstructured. And the amount of unstructured is vastly bigger. When you look at a finance department, the majority of the content that you have, the majority of the information is structured data. But in HR, it's completely the other way around. And I think that's an opportunity. I think it's also not just about the right tools, it's also skills and capabilities. And I've seen, this is ironic, but what type of people do you need to deal with that? I mean, who are not the data scientists, but the content scientists, who are these people? And I've seen a couple of people recently that have figured out an amazing skillset that we haven't tapped into. And it's people who studied library science. And this is really weird, right? But I've seen this now a couple of times that I'm beginning to see a pattern.
People said data scientists, we now know what data scientists are. These are people that understand how to manipulate huge volumes of structured data. But how do you deal with the complexity of taking that unstructured information? And it turns out the people who studied library science, where we thought all they could do is run a library, are really good at understanding how to put it together, how to see patterns, how to classify, how to organise. And I think this might be a revival. We're going to see, I don't know, maybe Conan the Librarian running content science departments in the future. It might be an interesting avenue to explore.
[0:27:32] David Green: That's certainly something for us to look out for, I think, in the coming years. So, what needs to change for organisations to build real capability around AI and data? It's not just about tech investment, obviously, although it's partly about tech investment, but new skills, new mindsets; or all of those things, and maybe something else as well?
[0:27:55] Peter Hinssen: I think all of those. The technology is something you shouldn't ignore, because there is the complexity of making sure that you understand your legacy information, that you bring that in in a safe and secure way, that you're capable of leveraging the opportunities. I think with agentic, that is only going to escalate in terms of technical capabilities. There is that mindset and culture, there is also the learning opportunity. But I think honestly, the most important thing is also having the guts, the courage to maybe remove some of the old ways of working. And I think I started calling that 'yesterwork'. And when I coined that term, yesterwork, it was just almost like a joke, but it's amazing how much that resonates with audiences. I mean, I love to do presentations and I drop that yesterwork slide in there, and I see people in the audience, who are working in the same organisation, nudging themselves saying, "See, that's what we have. We have yesterwork!" And I think it's classic Drucker; if you want to do something new, you have to remove something old. And I think yesterwork are almost the silent killers of organisations. I think, apart from the technical side of things, and the skills, and the competencies, and the mindset, I think it's also becoming ruthless yesterwork hunters. And I think that is where HR could play a massive, massive role.
[0:29:26] David Green: Yeah. And it's funny, when you mention that you see people nudging each other in the audience, you don't give them enough time to get their camera out and take a picture. Because for anyone that hasn't seen Peter present, I definitely recommend it. But if you want to take pictures of his slide, you've got to be very quick, because you manage to tell that story and flip the visuals very quickly, which is a real skill. I've seen other people try to do that very badly, but you do it very, very well.
[0:29:51] Peter Hinssen: Thank you. Thank you, David.
[0:29:52] David Green: In your previous book, The Phoenix and the Unicorn, you explored how organisations could reinvent themselves. We talked a little bit about that at the start. Are you seeing any standout phoenixes in this current climate, companies that are using uncertainty and disruption to truly transform?
[0:30:11] Peter Hinssen: Well, it's a fascinating environment now because when I wrote the book, The Phoenix and the Unicorn, it was like, there's the old world and the new world, right? And of course, the unicorns, every conference you went to, they would say, "Oh, Uber and Airbnb", and of course, also the tech giants that were there; and then, contrasting that to traditional companies. But I wanted to find companies that could reinvent themselves. The irony now is that even the tech companies need to reinvent themselves, and that is something that is a fascinating evolution. I mean, I'm here in my office, so if people are wondering what is behind me, I bought an old church in Belgium to house my Apple collection, because I'm one of the largest collectors of Apple computers in the world -- I think globally, top ten; European, certainly top three -- and the number one source of tension in my marriage over the last 27 years. But I found the solution because I bought a church to house my Apple collection.
Apple is 50 years old. And in 1997, Apple was dead. Absolutely. I mean, nobody thought they would survive. And they had mediocre products, the brand was going down. I mean, financially, they were in big trouble. And then Steve Jobs came back. And then the iMac and then the iPod, then the iPhone. And in ten years, it was like a miraculous recovery. And then since Steve Jobs passed, Tim Cook has done an amazing job at milking the cow. But now, the number one question I get, when I talk about my passion, people said, "Do you think Apple's going to make it? Are they going to reinvent themselves?" Apple at this moment is in real trouble. I mean, the last serious disruptive product innovation is 2010, the iPad. That's 15 years ago. We just had the Worldwide Developers Conference. They completely botched AI. They had big expectations a year ago, and they realised none of it turns out to be complete vapourware. They can't make AI work. On top of that, they're probably going to lose the $20 billion that Google gives them every year to put search on the iPhone, and then look at the enormous supply chain and tariff problems that they have when they produce their stuff in India or China. Apple, at this moment, is one of the most valuable companies in the world, and we all realise, "Oh my God, if they don't reinvent themselves, they're not going to make it".
By the way, it's not just Apple. Google, very similar. I mean, Google search is an illegal monopoly in the US. They're being attacked for their ad monopoly. And at the same time, you can clearly see that they invented a lot of this AI stuff, but they have real difficulty in bringing it out to market. They're being passed left and right by the OpenAIs, the Microsofts and the AWSs. So, I think it's fascinating. It's not just, this is the old world and the new world, this is the tech world and these are the legacy companies, every company needs to reinvent themselves. And I think this never normal is going to be a playing field. What I see is that those companies that understand that they need to completely rethink their instruments, that they need to prepare their people and build a positive narrative are the ones that are going to thrive. But it is not something where, like in digital, you just have to figure out the trick, you'll be fine. No, it's a constant mindset. The never normal never rests.
[0:33:35] David Green: Yeah, I suppose it's interesting. It's the disruptors being disrupted effectively.
[0:33:40] Peter Hinssen: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think look at the world of media, right? I mean, it used to be like, you had the old world and you had Netflix. But then, look at how many streaming services that came up. Something like Disney+ is now giving Netflix a run for their money. Netflix had to reinvent itself to accelerate in order to actually counter the disruptors, where they were the disruptors just before that. So, it becomes a game of hunt or be hunted, and that is I think what makes the never normal so really special, because I think we might see a situation where companies that were icons, I take Intel as an example, Intel is one of my favourite companies, I think Intel is a company that I have deep respect for, real, real scientific engineering knowledge that had brilliant ideas, like the 'Intel Inside'. But if you see that they lost 60% of their value in the last five years, because they didn't get the AI wave, you can clearly see that this is going to be something where nobody is safe, and you have to completely reinvent yourself for that era of the never normal.
[0:34:53] David Green: Yeah. And going on to the never normal, maybe this is what maybe helps some of these phoenixes emerge. Maybe Apple, I suppose it's done in the past, so maybe we can be reasonably confident that it will emerge again as a phoenix. What does effective leadership look like in the never normal, and how does it differ from the more linear command and control models we might still see in parts of the corporate world?
[0:35:18] Peter Hinssen: Yeah, and this is something that I find absolutely fascinating. As I said, I'm an engineer by training. Honestly, I now feel a little ashamed, because when I was a young engineer, I thought that was really all about technology and innovation. And that's what engineers are almost trained to believe. When I started teaching at London Business School 15 years ago, and I was introduced there by Rob Goffee. So, Rob was the Associate Dean at the time and he wrote that brilliant book, "Why Should Anyone Be Led By You?" And I still remember Rob going into a room full of executives, all with enormous achievements and accolades, and asking that very same question, "Why would anyone be led by you?" And it was such an alarming question that people would really soul-search. And I think I drank from that Kool Aid. So, there's a lot of my thinking of that school of thought. I mean, that idea of authentic leadership, embedded leadership, servient leadership, and I think that that is something which I fundamentally believe.
But I think what you now have is four fundamental questions. One is, "In a world of the never normal, can we just use the same old techniques of leadership, but just go faster?" I mean, two, "Does technology fundamentally change the role of leadership?" "How do we train the next generation of leaders?" and, "What are those ingredients for leadership in the never normal?" And I don't have a crystal-clear answer to that, but I think these are the questions that we should ask ourselves. And this is where I think leadership development is going to be one of the most fascinating areas going forward, because it's not just about the skills of the past that need to be changed. I think it's a whole different mindset and mentality that we need. And that idea of constant curiosity and open-mindedness, that idea of resilience and adaptability, that idea of anticipating and understanding where things -- and then, the resilience on top, that is going to be a fabulous cocktail where I think leadership development can be reinvented.
[0:37:30] David Green: So, what's the single most important shift the HR function needs to make to thrive in this new era of the never normal?
[0:37:38] Peter Hinssen: I think this is very simple. This is, I think, the moment to shine. I think this is the moment to be proactive. And I think maybe proactive is the most important element there. I mean, this has been my personal frustration with the HR community at large, is there is so much opportunity there. There is also a lot of disenchantment in the HR community. I mean, how many times have you heard HR leaders say, "Well, we're not taken seriously enough, we don't have a seat at the table, we're always involved when it's too late"? Yes, I understand. This is the moment, I think, with everything that is happening now, with the never normal, with that uncertainty, with AI, the transformation of work as we know it, the transformation of leadership, this is the moment to shine. So, I think if there's one opportunity, it's use that as a leverage mechanism. And I think 'proactive' is the most important word there.
[0:38:41] David Green: Yeah, we're seeing in some of the organisations, where HR seems to have more traction, getting more traction, they're not waiting to be asked, they're getting involved. They're asking to lead organisational transformation, and they're providing a compelling business case as to why they should do that. That's the few, and maybe the opportunity is for more organisations to do that. I guess it's about being bold as well.
[0:39:07] Peter Hinssen: Being bold, and I think also being able to build that narrative where you're going. I think this is a moment where, you know, we've talked about this for a long time, that passive role, transactional role of HR turning into a more proactive, transformational role, but being able to communicate that, being able to develop that narrative. And I think this is where I think HR leaders have a golden opportunity, because I mean when you look at finance or technology, I mean finance is brilliant at making sure that they are really at the very heart of that transformational narrative. IT is something you cannot do without, but this is, I think, that golden moment for HR to really take that advantage.
[0:39:56] David Green: How should HR rethink long-term talent strategy? What does foresight in HR truly look like when the future is so unpredictable? And how do we prepare a workforce for jobs that maybe don't even exist yet?
[0:40:10] Peter Hinssen: Yeah, I think let me give you one very practical example of that. When I talked earlier about that we might see an enormous clash happening in the next few years, where the 20-year-olds that are now being groomed at universities, AI native generation is going to come in. And they, first of all, are going to question everything that a company does. They're probably the best sniffer for yesterwork that you can imagine. I think they're going to hunt down the 35-year-olds. I mean, if you're 35 now, you are you are the digital natives of your organisation. You think, "Hey, I'm a digital native". But you joined the company at the age of, I don't know, 22, 23. Now you're 35. By this time, you're completely swamped with work. I mean, you barely get through the day, the weeks are a grind. You don't have time to get into this stuff. You might see something, experiment a little bit, but you really don't have time to get into the details.
All of a sudden, there's going to be a next generation. You're not going to be the newest kid on the block anymore. You're going to be surrounded by people who are capable of doing things in a super-more efficient, different, faster, more agile way. How do you deal with that? This is the moment to start preparing that. This is the moment to start understanding that journey, what it means, what it takes, what it means to develop guides and make sure that this is a gentle transition instead of a brutal transition. That's an excellent example of foresight, where you can already almost predict that this is going to happen. Well, get into it now, because if you wait until you have to, you're going to be too late.
[0:41:58] David Green: Peter, fantastic conversation. I mean, we've got a couple of questions, therefore we're heading towards the end now. And before we head to the question of the series, which is the one we ask everyone in this series, if listeners could take one big idea away from The Uncertainty Principle, what would you want it to be?
[0:42:15] Peter Hinssen: I think, from The Uncertainty Principle, there's just one idea, "Uncertainty isn't your enemy. Uncertainty is your friend". So, embrace this, examine it, study it, use it, leverage it. But one thing is clear, uncertainty is not going to go away. Uncertainty isn't new. I mean, it's not a bug, it's a fundamental feature. And it's a fundamental feature of the never normal. Learn how to use this and make it your friend.
[0:42:40] David Green: And in terms of the book, it's coming out in July, I believe?
[0:42:44] Peter Hinssen: End of June.
[0:42:45] David Green: End of June?
[0:42:46] Peter Hinssen: Yeah, absolutely. Very happy about that.
[0:42:49] David Green: So, great. So, anyone that is listening to this, the book is out. Just google The Uncertainty Principle, or go to Peter's website at peterhinssen.com, and you can find out all about it. Peter, let's get to the question of the series as well. How can HR help the organisation understand and improve team effectiveness, maybe in the never normal, let's add the never normal to it?
[0:43:11] Peter Hinssen: So, for me, that is very clear. As I said, this is, I think, the moment to shine, this is the opportunity to get out there. I mean, this is, I think, an opportunity to leverage the potential more than ever before. And I think it's also a wonderful opportunity to really fundamentally change the role and the image of AR. I think, just as I said, marketing leveraged the potential of digital 15 years ago. This is the moment in the never normal to really fundamentally transform that role of HR into, I think, a fundamental role, I think a much more interesting role, but also a vital role if you want your organisation to thrive in the never normal.
[0:43:55] David Green: Well, Peter, thanks so much for being on the show, on the Digital HR Leaders podcast for the second time. To wrap things up, can you let listeners know how they can find you on social media and follow all the great work that you're doing in your various things, and maybe find out more about Nexxworks as well.
[0:44:10] Peter Hinssen: Absolutely. So, my website is very simple, www.peterhinssen.com, and I am part of a collective called Nexxworks, which actually helps to inspire organisations to thrive in the day after tomorrow. And if you just google Nexxworks, with two Xs, I'm sure you'll find lots of very interesting information and people.
[0:44:32] David Green: They certainly will. Peter, thank you very much.
[0:44:35] Peter Hinssen: David, thank you very much for having me. Really enjoyed it and looking forward to seeing you soon, live, somewhere on a stage, but always a pleasure to work and talk to you.
[0:44:45] David Green: And that's where we'll leave today's episode. As Peter said, uncertainty isn't going anywhere, but with the right mindset, the right questions and a willingness to experiment, it can become one of our greatest strategic assets. If today's episode sparked ideas, questions, or even a shift in perspective, I'd encourage you to dive deeper into Peter's new book, The Uncertainty Principle. And if you're enjoying these conversations, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, rate and share with a colleague or friend. It really helps us reach more forward-thinking leaders like you. To connect with us at Insight222, follow us on LinkedIn, check out our website at insight222.com, and don't forget to sign up for our weekly newsletter at myHRfuture.com. That's all for now. Thank you for tuning in, and we'll be back next week with another episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast. Until then, take care and stay well.