Episode 233: The CHRO’s Playbook: How to Build an Agile and Data-Driven HR Function (with Janine Vos)
What does it really take to build an HR function that’s agile, data-driven, and truly influential at the top table?
In this episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, host David Green speaks with Janine Vos, Chief Human Resources Officer and Managing Board Member at Rabobank to explore how she has led her team through a significant transformation - shaping an HR function that not only keeps pace with business change, but helps lead it.
From embedding agility into the day-to-day to using data as a lever for influence, Janine shares the strategies that have helped her team earn credibility and drive impact.
Join them, as they discuss:
What being agile actually looks like in practice, and how Rabobank brought it to life
How to shift behaviours and mindsets to support new ways of working
Why data is only powerful when it’s paired with trust and strong relationships
How Janine helps her team move beyond the numbers to tell meaningful stories
The value of having people analytics report directly to the CHRO - and what others may be missing
What HR leaders need to prioritise today to stay relevant tomorrow
Whether you're leading transformation or just beginning to explore what AI means for your HR model, this episode sponsored by Hibob, offers practical insights and forward-thinking strategies to help you navigate what's next.
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Josh Bersin says that Bob is not only feature-rich but genuinely enjoyable to use.
Read his review of Bob--as an HR tech analyst and user--at www.hibob.com/davidgreen2025.
[0:00:00] David Green: Agile, data-driven, strategic influence and strong business acumen. These are some of the key qualities we increasingly associate with a modern and successful Chief Human Resources Officer. But how do you actually lead a people function that embodies all of these qualities? I'm David Green and today on the Digital HR Leaders podcast, that is exactly what I'm going to be asking my guest, Janine Vos, Chief Human Resources Officer and a member of the Managing Board at Rabobank. You see, over the past few years Janina has led her team through a significant transformation, building an HR function that's not only Agile and data-led, but also grounded in trust and strong relationships across the business.
So, today, we talk about what being Agile really means in practice, and how Janine and her team have brought that mindset to life within Rabobank. We explore what it takes to shift behaviours and ways of working, and how to use data not just to inform decisions but to influence them, especially when the insights challenge long-held assumptions. Janine also shares why storytelling is now a core skill for HR professionals, and what she believes HR leaders must prioritise to stay relevant in the years ahead. Janine also provides compelling evidence on the impact of having people analytics reporting directly into the Chief Human Resources Officer. In her words, "People analytics gives the CHRO credibility with the executive team and board". HR really is at a critical tipping point, and I hope this episode inspires you as much as it did me. PS: you may want to grab a pen and paper for this one.
Today I'm delighted to welcome Janine Vos, Chief Human Resources Officer at Rabobank, to the Digital HR Leaders Podcast. Janine, welcome to the show. It's wonderful to speak with you today. To kick things off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
[0:02:11] Janine Vos: Yes, of course. Thank you, David. I studied law and I became a trainee at a telco and IT company afterwards, because I wanted to experience different fields of expertise, because I didn't know where to end. So, I didn't have a sort of career programme when I was really young. But I saw a lot of fields. I did strategy, legal, but also retail, marketing, sales. And then, I ended up getting to manage 20 telco shops, telco outlets, and there I experienced leadership. And then, I saw that what is on paper is actually sometimes totally different when you enter a shop and you feel energy or not, and the difference people make; I experienced it. And that was sort of, I fell in love with it. And I thought, "I want to make a craft out of this". And then, of course, if you think about our field, people say HR is the field to go to, so I did. And so, I did different HR jobs. And then, I became the CHRO of that telco company.
Then Rabobank, which is a cooperative bank in the Netherlands, but also in 36 countries, actually approached me and said, "We are going to a big transformation and would you like to lead? So, I did. In the first year, I was a CHRO, and then I was appointed in the managing board as of 2017. And I'm loving it. I think people and transformation is what I love doing every day.
[0:03:54] David Green: That's great, and it's always good to hear, I think, people coming to HR having had experience in other business areas as well, which I imagine helps. And of course, so you've been Chief Human Resources Officer and a member of the managing board at Rabobank now for eight years. I'd love to get your perspective on how you feel that the role of the Chief HR Officer has evolved over that time.
[0:04:17] Janine Vos: I think it evolved massively. What I like, being in the managing board, is that I'm not only solely responsible for people, but I'm responsible also for the strategy of the bank. And that actually evolved me as a CHRO. So, before, I felt as an expert on people or the expert in HR, but given the whole spectrum of leading this company gave me far more broader experience. So, it's more like I evolved as well. But it gave me a better perspective on what's needed for people. And because of everything I hear on a daily basis in terms of what's going on in the world, how does that affect our company, I can better respond in terms of what to do on the people side. And so, COVID, of course, had a massive impact on HR, and I think it made us credible for the ones who really took this change also with data, to be honest, to make it so precise, how do people feel; what do people need currently while being at home; it gave us more a podium to show if you focus on people, performance gets better as well. And I think that was a defining moment for HR, the COVID time.
Again, now with AI, and agentic AI coming in, I think it is going to be again a big time of change and a change for our roles as well, and the impact but also influence we have on everything which relates to strategy, but also strategic workforce planning, what kind of skills do we need; what is agentic AI; how can we help people actually get attached to the risks but also the opportunities; and we already see work shifting.
[0:06:17] David Green: So, Janine, I think I first came to see you and the leadership team at Rabobank, I think it was in 2018, it might've been 2019. I know it was before the pandemic and you were obviously quite early in your tenure as a CHRO there. And what really struck me is that even then, you and the HR leadership team, and I know the people analytics function you've got, very data-driven. And you're also about to experiment with moving to Agile, and HR was leading the way at Rabobank. Just for the benefit of our listeners, what does being data-driven and Agile actually mean in practice for Rabobank; and how does it influence your daily leadership?
[0:06:59] Janine Vos: Well, my daily leadership, of course in a telco and IT company where I previously worked, data was already a big topic. And so, when I entered into this CHRO role within Rabo, I thought the first thing to appoint in my leadership team of HR is a People Analytics Officer. I was really focusing on that I sensed that data would become more and more important, because most of the time, our craft or our expertise is seeing a soft side, but I think soft side and hard profit actually is also a paradox, but it is the same. And I thought, what if everything we sense or feel, what if we actually can transfer that with data? And data helps in getting more people who are more on the rational side, getting them involved and seeing why it is important to focus on the people side. So, talking about feelings is, of course, I do not want to say that we don't talk about feelings, but I think balancing both is really important.
So, you can say, I sense that this part of the organisation, it's going into a difficult time. But if I backed that up with data on sick leave, if I backed it up with data on audit findings with engagement scan, with culture behaviour, with work and data scans, with health scans, then if I transfer all that data, and then my sense-making is actually also fact making, and that is what I love about data. Maybe you'll also see me going forward, because I love the fact of what data can do. And then, if you talk about data, then you can also talk about what is underneath the data, what is the root cause, because then people see you are balancing both, you find the evidence, and that is in the data. And so, I found it really important that I had a really good People Data Officer. And I found him working at also an IT company, and I thought, "He's the one". And every decision I took in the first two or three years, but still, he's really important in my team, for the whole team.
Then, we moved into Agile, and of course Agile was already really well known in the IT part; we wanted to scale that to other departments as well. We wanted to scale that to the total company, and we did a big transformation in three to four years, that we actually transferred almost every product development department either on the business side, but also IT, but also supporting functions, like risk, finance, and HR into Agile. And that was a journey itself, because we were daring enough to say, "We can work Agile within HR", but that was a big transformation. And so, to your point, data helped me in the last eight years. I would say without data, I wouldn't have been appointed in the board.
[0:10:06] David Green: Yeah, and I know you kindly spoke at our Insight222 retreat last September, 2024 that is, if people listen to it in a few years' time, near Amsterdam. And I think the quote that you said was, "People analytics gives the Chief Human Resources Officer credibility with the executive team and the board".
[0:10:26] Janine Vos: Yes, it does. It started also with, for instance, COVID. I think we were working from home. The morning we worked from home, there was already a pop up in your screen, "How are you today? If you could say one word, what would you need?" And so, we already had, when we had all the sort of emergency calls, we could already back it up by, "The people are okay", or, "In this part of the organisation, they're not okay. People need this from their leaders. People need this from the organisation in terms of devices". We could already do that, day one. And we do that still. Every business case we make, every challenge or programme, whatever, is backed up by numbers.
[0:11:18] David Green: Yeah. And again, we saw it in other organisations as well, that the companies like yours that were actually asking these questions and providing this information to leaders, it opened the eyes, in many companies, of leaders into the power of people data and how they could use it to drive really important strategic decisions within the company. And I guess that those companies, like Rabobank, that were able to do that during the pandemic have kind of benefited from that moving forward in terms of the importance of the role of HR and the CHRO.
[0:11:58] Janine Vos: And it still helps us on a daily basis. As an example, during COVID, everyone was focusing on people because we this was a people thing, right? This is a health issue affecting a lot of people. And then, after COVID, you see that normality takes on again. And if you then show, also in terms of hybrid ways of working, for instance, I thought there's going to be a different time that people feel different about hybrid way of working. There's always, when you have change, there's always a contra. There's also something stepping in or creeping in. And I thought there's going to be that moment. So, we need from moment one, we need data on how is productivity; how do we drive productivity; how is hybrid way of working helping us? Because I felt that if I looked at how people really would like organisations to be, and the flexibility and the balance of work life, it's so important that is not going to stop. And if we want to attract talent, if we really would like our people to grow, we need hybrid way of working.
So, there's always going to be a contract reaction to everything. You see that now in the world, but it's also happening within hybrid way of working. So, from moment one, we said we're going to stack up everything with data. So, actually, when the moment comes, and the organisation said, "Well, it's going to be back in the office again, or maybe more days in the office", that we could actually say, "If we do that, this will be the response, this will be the attrition rate, this will happen in the organisation". And with data, you actually see the total picture or the total movie instead of your own picture you have in your mind. That's what I love about data.
[0:13:56] David Green: A shout-out to our sponsor for this episode, HiBob, a fast-growing new leader in the HCM market. According to HR tech guru, Josh Bersin, HiBob is one of the few SaaS companies that have successfully cracked the code on user experience. Josh Bersin says that Bob is not only feature-rich but genuinely enjoyable to use. Read his review of Bob, as an HR tech analyst and a user, at www.hibob.com/davidgreen2025.
You've gone far beyond, where most companies are still unfortunately fixated with where people work, you're actually looking at how people work and how work has changed when you come into an office. And obviously, looking at the facilities, looking at design of the workspace and actually measuring the impact of that on employee experience at different stages of the journey, but also on productivity and business performance as well. And it's so important that, as you said, with those Agile teams working together, where you've got people from multiple functions working together to solve a common problem, then you're going to get more collaboration. You're going to get more focus on the rounded part of what you're trying to achieve, rather than just the silo mentality that maybe we've had in the past.
[0:15:39] Janine Vos: Completely agree. And it is so nice, because it comes to the nitty-gritty details as well. For instance, if you come into the office, I'm not currently in the office, but if you come into our offices now, if you go into a meeting room, you see that the meeting room is different, it feels more warmly, like more at home. The screens, for instance, IT is showing the behaviour sheets, and it has information and data on what are effective meetings, how they comprise of not more than eight people, they have a clear agenda. So, you see that even if you enter a room, you see that combination between people and performance. And that is the vision we try to get down, not only from the strategy, but also in terms of the daily moments of work. And that is if you combine IT with HR, you get a lot of creativity on that side. It's not easy, and I must say it took me far longer than I ever envisioned it would take, but we're getting there, step by step, and progress over perfection, I would say. But it helps getting different silos working together.
[0:16:53] David Green: I mean, you've given a very powerful example of how working in a more Agile way probably makes the HR role more interesting, but also actually has a positive impact on the business and the employees. But for listeners that maybe haven't moved to Agile yet or are struggling to move to Agile in HR, how have you handled that transformation internally? What's been your experience leading the HR function through that mind shift and behaviour change?
[0:17:31] Janine Vos: Yes, and it's easy talking about it now, but if I reflect on that period, I think I had a clear why, because I saw it being really effective in the customer side of the organisation. So, I saw the customer journey, that not handling everything in silos, I thought, is the same as an employee. If you enter a building, you don't want to go to one office to get your laptop, the other office to have a setup of your security, a contract from a different department. You don't want that. You want it to be seamless and you want it to be easy, and we're not at that stage yet. But thinking from that concept, I think I was really clear on, the employees deserve us being better on the employee experience. And people are employees themselves. So, what you face on a daily basis, others do too. And I made some pictures, for instance, if it was the first of the month, we had long lines of new colleagues joining. They had to come to security first. And I made pictures, or my team and myself, we made pictures of things in the employee journey which gave them like, "Yes, this is what we all want".
So, the why was really clear, and I think the role-modelling of me saying that this is not easy, it's change, it's something different, but I truly believe that we do not only want a great place to work, we want a great place to be, where people belong, where people can be their best selves. That is the vision and I'm struggling with that as well. So, I think that is what was really clear. And then we said, "We've got to do things different, so you need to reenforce the mechanism. So, we shuffled everyone, we said, "Everyone gets a chance to get into Agile". So, we're all not there yet, but everyone gets a chance. So, we made squads, multidisciplinary squads, and we just formed them around a theme, like performance management, like talent management or leadership. And then, someone from People Data was joining, and that was from the chapters from culture, behavioural science, a product owner, an IT or architecture if that was necessary, marketing, facilities. So, they were working in multidisciplinary squads. So, we really made a change. And then, of course, a lot of training and a lot of insights into that.
What I've learned is that I should have been more precise from the start, what I really expect from people in terms of their growth. And also, maybe I was too long on, we were going to make this happen. And some product owners really stepped up. And they are now perfect product owners who could actually also switch towards business someday already, because it is similar, right, managing a product for HR or people, and managing a product for customers. So, that is a benefit. I think that people felt like, "Wow, we're actually transferral, we are growing, we now understand IT better, we understand data better". But to be frank, I should have been more clear to some people like, "You will never get into a really great role of being a product owner". So, I should have had more courageous conversations at the start with some people. But that's also that's always looking hindsight.
Where we're currently at, I'm really happy seeing the growth of so many people and actually getting into better results, if you think about how people experience our employee journeys. We came from, I think it was a 3.2 and we're currently on a 4.2 on a scale of 5. Not every employee experience, of course, but some we say, we do not go for a 5, we go for a 3.
[0:21:22] David Green: Yeah. I mean, it sounds from the way you've explained it, Janine, is that all the business professionals that are working in the squads are becoming more rounded business professionals, more sealed in other areas. And then, they've got more flexibility to move into other domains within the organisation as well, which presumably helps you increase internal mobility and retention of talent.
[0:21:42] Janine Vos: Yes, and also talents from the business who actually are leading squads from a people perspective. So, it's from both sides of the mobility and talent management, yes.
[0:21:57] David Green: I want to take a short break from this episode to introduce the Insight222 People Analytics Programme, designed for senior leaders to connect, grow, and lead in the evolving world of people analytics. The programme brings together top HR professionals with extensive experience from global companies, offering a unique platform to expand your influence, gain invaluable industry insight and tackle real-world business challenges. As a member, you'll gain access to over 40 in-person and virtual events a year, advisory sessions with seasoned practitioners, as well as insights, ideas and learning to stay up-to-date with best practices and new thinking. Every connection made brings new possibilities to elevate your impact and drive meaningful change. To learn more, head over to insight222.com/programme and join our group of global leaders.
You mentioned earlier that one of the first appointments you made to your leadership team, when you became Chief Human Resources Officer at Rabobank, was your Head of People, Data, Innovation and Strategy, Marc Jansen, and he reports directly to you. Now, based on our research at Insight222, this is still surprisingly not the norm. Our research last year, and we do it every year, showed that 22% of the people that have Marc's role report directly into the CHRO. Now, that's increased from 13% in 2020, so it is moving upwards. What impact has that reporting line had on your strategy, and what do you think other CHROs are missing out on by not having the People Analytics Leader as a core part of their leadership team?
[0:23:52] Janine Vos: Yeah, the first time you told me this was at Insight222, I was a little bit shocked because I thought it already was normal. Because like I said, I am not good enough in terms of data or the really deep knowledge on data. I know what data can do, I know I need it, but I need someone to actually help me. And I know if I want to be successful and my team wants to be successful -- and all my team members know that without Marc, we will not be successful or as effective as we could. So, for me, when you said that, it was like, "Wow, really?" Yeah, I'm a little bit shocked because Marc, to underpin this point, we started with the people data, but now behavioural science is also part of the remit of Marc, so the data on the behavioural science part, also innovation, and also people strategy. So, the scope broadened because if you look at innovation, if you look at people data, if you see with data actually what is needed in terms of innovation, it's interesting you hear me thinking, "How could I do it without data and without this role in my team? And also, our people strategy, it always starts with data and the outside-in data, data from our company, what we see, what are the trends, what are the predictions. Yeah, I would say anyone who listens, who's a CHRO or an HR director, please appoint a really good one and you will see the value add.
[0:25:39] David Green: That might become a quote that we'll use for this episode, Janine! No, it's interesting, because in the research that we do at Insight222, we look at what makes companies successful at people analytics. And one of the eight characteristics is about influence of the People Analytics Leader. So, that's their influence on the CHRO and the HR leadership, but it's also their influence with the CEO, the CFO, and other members of the leadership board. And we've seen increasingly, those companies are combining the role of the Head of People Analytics, just as you have at Rabobank, with being responsible for people strategy as well, because they go together, don't they? And I think you mentioned workforce planning as well. I mean, that's another area that seems to go together, particularly now as workforce planning becomes even more important and even more continuous, I would say. So, planning, strategy and analytics together kind of makes sense, because you need data for all of those. So, yeah, it is really interesting.
I think, again, you talked at the start about how leadership, being a leader really attracted you into kind of leading the people function. And actually, good leaders surround themselves with good people. Sometimes, they surround themselves with people that are better at things than they are, like you said there with data, with Marc. And that's an important aspect of being a good CHRO, isn't it, surrounding yourself with really good people? So, it makes the team better and the function more effective.
[0:27:14] Janine Vos: It does. You need experts, but you also need people who are better than you because you get yourself down and less results. On a scale of 1 to 10, you need like people who are really good, 8 or 9, or even a 10, to actually have a team because I am not the people domain. We are together, and you need it. And that's also nice within a team that actually people demand more quality. If the quality goes up, that's what I love, yes.
[0:27:49] David Green: Again, in the research we do at Insight222, we look at skills of HR professionals that are important in building a data culture within HR and data literacy. And being able to influence stakeholders is one of them; being able to pull the insight from a visualisation or a chart is another; being able to develop hypotheses that you can test with analytics is another. But maybe the one that really resonates with people most is storytelling. We often say that HR needs to become better storytellers with data. I'm just interested for you, Janine, what does good storytelling look like to you, and how do you coach your team to move beyond simply the numbers?
[0:28:36] Janine Vos: Yes, and this resonates, because a lot of good data people think data talks for itself, but it doesn't. So, the great data people combine data, and already make a story or think about the leader, what kind of story would you tell with this data? And that is what Marc or our people analytics team does, they think of data, think about the business problem or the people problem and then transfer it to that. The best people do that. Because in the managing board, or whatever board, if you want to influence a decision, you need to think about the problem. So, it's not data for data, it's data for the problem, and how could you transfer those two. And then, you need a story around the data, and sometimes I do not have the time to always think about the story. So, it's good that Marc already does the synthesis around the data and then tells me, "This is the three things which you must, maybe, or should say around this. This is the essence". And stakeholder management is so important, and that is all around getting a good story across. And data doesn't say anything if you don't have a good story around it.
So, storytelling, yes. And a lot of people think that is a little bit off their track. They think I love data, but without a good story, data is nothing. And so, to be a good storyteller, I think you must get into the shoes of the people who you're trying to get the story across or influence, and not only think about the problem, but also, how do I get the message across? So, get into their shoes, but also feel the emotion yourself, feel the problem yourself and what would you do with this data. Sometimes, that's not easy because then I ask people, "What should I do with this data?" And then people say, "Well, I only looked at the data, but I don't know, this is your job, right?" They look at me like, "Yeah, but this is what you should do, no? What would you do if you would be in my shoes?" And then actually, people say great things, which you actually can use again in my own setting. So, getting the story and talking about it helps. So, do not send people charts with data. Have a discussion around it, or already have a storytelling, so it's getting into the shoes of the other, thinking about a story, and it has to strike some emotion with the other party.
[0:31:26] David Green: That's interesting, Janine, we've just released an episode with Dean Carter, who was a CHRO for 25 years, companies include Sears and Patagonia, and his view was that good storytelling separates the great People Analytics Leaders from the good People Analytics Leaders. I might extend that a bit further and say that actually, good storytelling separates the good leaders, full stop, HR leaders particularly, from the good HR leaders, because ultimately you've got to get a decision made, and a good story, a captivating, compelling story will help you to do that.
[0:32:06] Janine Vos: I agree. And also, particularly in this world where it's sort of chaotic, brittle, anxious, non-linear and incomprehensible. People need vision and they need hope and they need leaders to have better stories, I would even say, going into the future. And data can actually help with that, because data in this world sometimes is not being trusted anymore. It's a trust you create with good data, and then have a good story around it, it's the perfect combination going forward; we need it in this world, we need good, reliable data. And if you then have a good story, because people want good stories, they're ready for good stories, for better stories, I would say, then you have the best of both worlds.
[0:33:10] David Green: Actually, you mentioned the word 'trust' there. One of the challenges that we've had in HR for a number of years is that senior leaders don't necessarily trust the data when it comes from HR, certainly if you compare it to coming from finance. So, data helps us increase our influences as HR leaders and professionals. How do you get the trust as well from senior leaders, that the insights that you're providing are accurate and are going to drive a positive decision and positive outcome?
[0:33:42] Janine Vos: Yeah, that was also a journey I experienced as well, because in a bank, finances even, it's a double whammy, right? Normally, you deal with CFOs in every company, but in a bank, it is the function, so to speak. And so, at first, they had that. We did not have one platform, so we started working with Workday, I think, in 2018. So, I knew I had to get one data set, one global data set. Because before that, I wasn't talking about data until I was sure about the data. And then, at first when we came with the data, yes, the finance department sometimes challenges that we have different FTE numbers, it doesn't add up in the way our subsystem, for instance, does. So, that was at first. And then, when they saw that Marc and his team are really knowledgeable, really good craftsmen and women, they started trusting us more. And so, do not start when it's perfect, I would say, because perfect doesn't exist. But start when you feel comfortable, like, "I think this is what I could call as good solid data", and then build up again and again the data.
For instance, Monday we had a session and Marc also came in to tell about strategy and leadership. And he sat down and then I have thought it was a proud moment, that the CEO turned to Marc and said, "Could you deliver me the data on this, this and this?" And the CFO and myself, we were sitting next to each other and we laughed like, "Wow, that was the first time". So, it's not anymore a thing between CFO and CHRO, it's just we trust each other. And if we have questions, we do not put it on the table deliberately, like some do in meetings, but just we phone each other and we just say, "Could we help each other?" It's a completely different environment than it was before. Because at the start, yes, I experienced that as well, and some people find it really easy to actually say, "Well, the people data is not good enough". Also, that is a behaviour thing, because people think that HR is not good enough in data, and they try to get you off balance by saying so. And so, that is also a journey, but now we're at the good end of the journey, I would say.
[0:36:29] David Green: The last three questions, Janine, let's look to the future. We'll touch on AI in the question of the series, actually. If you look, you've been CHRO now for eight years at Rabobank. If we look five years ahead, and I appreciate that's very difficult and I won't hold you to this, what do you think will define successful HR leadership in 2030?
[0:36:53] Janine Vos: We talked about a lot of content, but I would say it starts with me. It starts with reflection. When everything is in turmoil, like it is now, I need to focus on what does this ask for my leadership going forward. The world is changing, people vote different leaders; that does something with leadership. It's also politics are entering into our organisations, and that does something with the people domain and with me. So, first I would say that everyone looks at this world where we now live in, it's going to be completely different in five years, it starts with me. So, I first have to adapt and change towards what we're currently in. And so, working on my own self-reflection, working on my own leadership, is what I first need to do. So, maybe not a completely answer to your question, but I think it's necessary that we all do that, look at rebalance again.
[0:38:02] David Green: Yeah, reflect, rebalance and adapt as the world changes.
[0:38:06] Janine Vos: Yes.
[0:38:07] David Green: What do you think, again, that maybe not looking five years ahead, what do you see as the core priorities for HR leaders if they want to remain relevant in the years ahead? And you can look at the next 12 to 18 months because it's probably a little easier to do that!
[0:38:23] Janine Vos: I think in terms of content, I hope in five years we all work around employee journeys. And so, there's going to be a movement further, the next phase of Agile, I would say, that is on the content level. And secondly, would I embrace AI or do it deliberately? Because what I now see with agentic AI, they work together. At a company called Monica, a Chinese company, they already have multiple agentic AI working together. So, in five or ten years, will we all lead AI agents? Is that what we're entering towards? And I think thinking about those scenarios, and what does it mean in terms of skills for your people, but also how many people do you need in size, we should all think about it now, what are the scenarios, and how can we prepare for scenarios?
The third phase, but I think especially in Europe, we need to think about resilience. And that is what I am really busy with in scenario-planning. What if something happened in the Baltic States and Article 3 and Article 5 of the NAVO will become effective, then we will have a completely different scenario in terms of how do we deal with that? Are we resilient enough as a workforce? Are we resilient enough as a company as one Europe, and when you're plus UK, I would say? But that kind of thing is the 13 number on my mind; the world is shifting, and how do we adapt to that? And that actually trickles down to, what should you do with how you work, where you work, with privacy, with data? Where do you get your talent from? Because we now work in a global organisation and we work with global talent from across the world. And what if that wouldn't be possible towards the future?
[0:40:25] David Green: Do contingency-planning, basically, and scenario-planning, as you said.
[0:40:28] Janine Vos: Yes, scenario-planning, contingency-planning.
[0:40:32] David Green: We're going to move to the questions of the series, which we're kind of bringing AI back into it. And I'll ask you a follow-up possibly about this as it relates to HR itself, the HR operating model. But the question of the series is, how can HR use AI to improve employee experience and wellbeing?
[0:40:51] Janine Vos: AI is becoming more human. And so, of course, chatbots, that's the first phase. But AI also, in terms of strategic workforce planning, you see it in skills already. We had a lot of platforms, we use different platforms, what do you think about skills? But now you see technology partners actually combining AI for instance, so CoPilot is integrated in your Microsoft suite. And so, I think in a few years' time, it will just be perfectly capable of seeing what your skills are and match them with skills within the company. And so, mobility within a company will be done by AI, talent management, coaching. What I see in the contact centres now is that AI is already so good in sensing what is the mood of the customer and then responding to the mood of the customer. It does it, he, she does that perfectly already. So, it will transform. And I think we, as humans, are imperfect and maybe that is what will make us perfect going forward, because AI, yes, the impact on HR will be massive.
[0:42:12] David Green: Yeah, and again, early days, but what do you see as the impact on the HR operating model of AI? Because we're starting to see, McKinsey published something earlier this year which was very thoughtful, around how they thought the HR operating model would evolve with AI. Similarly, Volker Jacobs at TI People published something very recently, again around how the HR operating model will evolve, which actually was very much based around products, which is I guess where you're already kind of moved to at Rabobank.
[0:42:43] Janine Vos: Yes. Well, the products we already moved to, so I would go from products to experience. That is the next phase I see. And I had a consultant pitching me a zero-human company last week. So, he said it's possible to go without humans. And for me, that was dystopia, right? But it could be. Then the question is, what do we do with the extra time? How could we do that as a society? Then you come into a different -- I love that, but that would be another podcast. But it is interesting to see, what if a zero-human company would be accomplished? Wow! That is the sort of crazy stuff, which you only see in movies.
Coming back to your operating model, I think also in terms of scenario planning and possibilities, as of from September, we start again, we do every year cycle with data on what do we see outside-in. It's one of the things we start with, "What if we become a zero human company?" We will never be. But thinking from that perspective, then that is what we do with the people analytic department, is this kind of provoking thoughts to run them as a team, "And what actually is it we humans need to do?" And then you come back to, "Become more human". So, where AI is becoming more human, and we as society, we had a survey in the Netherlands done, where you see that people are really happy on the rational side in terms of, yes, our country, but also in Europe, it is well-developed. But we become less and less happy. Is that what we want as society? No. So, how could we influence that? What can we do as HR functions to help with becoming more human as humans?
[0:44:39] David Green: You're right, Janine, there probably is another podcast. And maybe one of the questions the CROs are going to have to deal with is pushing back against business leaders who do want zero humans, or few-human companies because, as you said, that could be quite dystopian if we didn't get it right.
[0:44:59] Janine Vos: Yes, it will become. What I now see, for instance, in our contact centre is we use AI a lot and people were really happy with it, because AI makes your summaries and before that, you used to do that in five minutes. It does give you tips on what is cross-sell and upsell. And so, we see everything is going into the right direction. And then, I had an ask from the business, "Yes, we see this happening, but you also see that the chatbot is responding to the simple questions". And so, the agents are seeing more complex questions ending up on their side of the phone. And on the other end, they have less diversity in their day-to-day tasks. So, they have more complex and more phone calls if we do not change the way we craft the jobs, and that is the essence. It's becoming more complex and more repetitive. We thought AI would get rid of the repetitive stuff, and it does, but it does something else as well. And how do we, as HR, look at job-crafting, job functions, creating gigs, maybe, internally? Well, this is a topic which connects deeply to what I think we can redefine the way we work, but we should be on top of it and not seeing how things evolve, but be on top of it with a lot of data.
[0:46:31] David Green: Thank you so much for being a guest on the Digital HR Leaders podcast, I really enjoyed the conversation. Can you let listeners know how they can find you on social media and follow all the great work that you're doing at Rabobank?
[0:46:44] Janine Vos: Oh, you can follow me on LinkedIn, Janine, and my surname is Vos. So, that is on LinkedIn, and you can reach out or ask me a question, of course.
[0:46:57] David Green: Perfect. Well, Janine, thank you so much, really enjoyed the conversation. Hope to see you again in person.
[0:47:05] Janine Vos: Yes. Well, thank you, David. I always admire you were always first with a lot of things, and especially on data. So, I really admire what you're doing. Thank you very much.
[0:47:16] David Green: A huge thank you to Janine for joining me and for sharing such thoughtful insights on what it takes to lead an Agile, data-driven and trusted HR function. And of course, thank you as always to our listeners for being part of the Digital HR Leaders community. Whether you're listening on your commute, in between meetings, on a run, or with a notebook in hand, we appreciate you being here and taking the time to grow with us.
At Insight222, our mission is to empower HR and People Analytics Leaders to drive lasting business impact. So, if you enjoyed today's conversation, it would mean a lot if you subscribed, rated the show, and shared it with someone in your network. For more industry insights and learning resources, I also recommend visiting insight222.com, following us on LinkedIn, and subscribing to our weekly newsletter at myHRfuture.com. That's all for now. Thank you for tuning in and we'll be back next week with another episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast. Until then, take care and stay well.