Episode 246: How to Transform HR Into an Insight-Driven Function (with Jenny Dearborn)
What if the reason HR isn’t influencing strategy… is because it’s looking in the wrong direction?
That’s the powerful idea Jenny Dearborn - Chief People Strategy Officer at BTS and co-author of The Insight-Driven Leader - unpacks with host David Green in this episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast.
Drawing on her experience as a senior HR leader in some of the world’s biggest companies, Jenny makes the case for a bold shift: from reactive, rear-view reporting to forward-looking, insight-driven action.
Join them, as they explore:
Why “data-driven” HR often falls short, and what insight-driven really means
The risks of relying on outdated metrics that don’t influence business decisions
What CEOs should be demanding from HR leaders
How top organisations are transforming HR into a strategic, insight-generating function
What it looks like when HR operates like a product organisation
How CHROs can build trusted partnerships with CFOs and CIOs
If you’re ready to unlock the true strategic potential of your HR function, this is a conversation you don’t want to miss
This episode is sponsored by TechWolf.
TechWolf helps enterprises get fast, accurate, and actionable skills data—without surveys. From identifying the skills your workforce has to mapping what they need, TechWolf’s AI integrates seamlessly with your existing systems to turn messy data into strategic advantage.
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This episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast is brought to you by TechWolf.
[0:00:11] David Green: Over the past decade, we've been advocating for a more data-driven HR function, one that can speak the language of the business, drive decisions, demonstrate impact, and help shape strategy. And while progress has certainly been made, the reality is that many HR teams are still working hard to turn data into something that drives action. This is the focus of my conversation today with Jenny Dearborn, Chief People Strategy Officer at BTS, and co-author, with Kelly Rider, of the timely book, The Insight-Driven Leader, which Jenny describes as a book for those who aspire to unlock the full potential of their workforce data and HR organisation; and former IBM CHRO and previous podcast guest, Diane Gherson, endorses as a handbook describing the value-creating CHRO. As a senior business and HR leader herself, Jenny has spent her career at the intersection of people, business and analytics. And in her book, she makes a compelling case for why being data-driven isn't enough.
So, today we are going to explore what it truly means to be insight-driven, why rearview mirror metrics can limit HR's influence, how forward-looking insights can help HR play a more strategic role, and how HR can start operating more like a product organisation with clear outcomes, user focus, and measurable value. So, without further ado, let's get into the conversation.
Jenny, welcome to the show. It's wonderful to speak with you today. For those who may not know your path from CHRO to author and advisor, please could you give a brief introduction to yourself and your journey that got you to where you are today?
[0:02:06] Jenny Dearborn: Sure. I was a high school English public-speaking and drama teacher for two years, just a very short period of time, and then an instructor, a stand-up instructor at Hewlett-Packard; and then, from there, went into sales at a startup selling education services; and then, from there, back to HR, where I led a learning development team at Sun Microsystems for a couple of years; and then, moved up at Sun Microsystems to Chief Learning Architect and then Chief Learning Officer for the Americas, which was a P&L organisation, so it had a $100 million quota; back to Hewlett Packard, reporting into HR; and then SuccessFactors as Chief Learning Officer there, and then we were acquired by SAP. So, my path has been reporting into HR, reporting into sales, reporting into HR, reporting into sales. So, I've had a very strong business orientation, because I've had to carry a quota and manage a P&L. And then, whenever I was doing that, I sold to HR. So, HR was my customer, HR was my client, or I was in HR. So, I sort of had both of those perspectives. I was Chief Talent Officer at SAP for five years, and then left and started a CHRO journey, Klaviyo, Productboard, a couple of other places, and now I'm at BTS. And I've enjoyed wherever I've gone to write about my work experiences.
So, the first book, Data Driven, was written when I was at SuccessFactors, and that was about the experience of running sales enablement at SuccessFactors. So, that was a fictionalised case study basically about our experience. The second book, I wrote with my colleague, David Swanson at SAP, and that was about taking those same algorithms to be able to pull data and understand how to calibrate your algorithm to maximise productivity in leadership. And that was at SAP. And then, this was about how to take a data-driven approach across the whole enterprise. So, it's been a lot of different roles that's shaped my journey, for sure.
[0:04:40] David Green: How did that commercial background help you as a practitioner?
[0:04:45] Jenny Dearborn: Well, a ton of ways. You immediately have credibility in the room with business clients because you've been in their shoes or sat in their seat, or whatever metaphor you want to use. Your job is to make your quota and meet your customer's needs, and you're extremely focused and kind of terrified, quarter-over-quarter, about focusing on business results. So, it's incredible empathy. And also, you understand the full product lifecycle. I mean, you're living it, that you are trying to sell something to customers that maybe they don't want. So, you have to go back to product and engineering and say, "Hey, the product, what I'm trying to sell has to be different to meet their needs. We're getting crushed in the market here by competitors". So, that deep empathy, and then you're just always immersed in these conversations. It's an MBA by fire, about how your organisation works.
Then you move over to the HR side and your business clients remember that you are right there, in the middle of the conversation, and all of a sudden, these things that we're arguing about in HR just seem ridiculous. Like, why are we wasting our time? Like, don't we know here in HR what the real problem is? When I was at SuccessFactors, or something, it was like, the real problem is we're getting crushed by Workday, not what we decide to name a programme internally. Let's really focus on the company's problem. And so, it just brings speed to everything you do, it brings incredible focus to everything you do, and it just snaps everything into perspective.
[0:06:42] David Green: Yeah. It sounds like you're suggesting to maybe those that are aspiring to be the HR leaders of the future, to maybe spend some time outside HR.
[0:06:52] Jenny Dearborn: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the best advice I ever got and repeat is if you want to have a career in HR leadership, the best thing to do is leave HR and come back. You have to have many, many years outside of HR. I think, from a career progression perspective, horizontal is the new vertical in terms of career mobility. Given the longevity of our lives and our careers and our health span and that we're not going to be able to retire at the young age that our grandparents did, we're going to have to have a very long career with a compressed organisational structure. And if you want upward mobility, it has to be horizontal for many years, many, many years to be able able to reach management levels at some point.
[0:07:50] David Green: That's great. I think hopefully that sets up our conversation quite well. I think we're going to be moving between HR and the business throughout this now. You talked about the books, so The Insight-Driven Leader is the third book, if I'm correct, that you've authored or co-authored. What inspired you to co-author this brilliant book, I have to say?
[0:08:14] Jenny Dearborn: Oh, thanks. As a practitioner, I felt that we weren't having the right conversation in HR circles, that we were not addressing the real problem of what was holding HR back, or what great HR looked like when it's done really, really well in an organisation. Their secret to success was not what we were talking about at SHRM meetings or ATD meetings, or something. When we're talking to each other as HR practitioners, our conversations were kind of missing the point of what really the most successful HR leaders did. And I wanted to figure out why. So, what is it that really, really makes HR differentiated, successful? And I personally believe that HR is more important than ever, given all of the exciting/chaotic stuff that's going on in our world, especially with AI and the future of jobs and things like that.
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When did it first hit you that that HR to business or that CHRO to CEO relationship needed to fundamentally change?
[0:11:11] Jenny Dearborn: When I was in the Chief People Officer role for the first time, that's when I really realised that that relationship sets the tone for how HR is viewed, and how impactful and successful it can be for the entire organisation. It cascades through the whole HR function, it cascades horizontally across the leadership team, and it impacts all of the work that you do, and how much that CEO, CHRO are really, really on the same page about the nature and the scope of the role and the expectations of the role. You know, is that role supposed to be the incredibly competent and successful administrator, making sure that everything tactical that could be done is absolutely done, and trains run on time? And that's where most CEOs and CHROs are. And that's incredibly successful, but it's also limited. You could have a great company where it's just a really efficient, administrative machine; or you could have an organisation where HR is a really, really a strategic partner, and the CEO thinks every business problem is a people problem and, "I'm not going to try and tackle any business problems unless I have my people person here with me advising every single step about product or about supply chain or market penetration or expanding in other countries", or whatever it is. And that your CHRO is your very first lieutenant. And there's some companies where they have that relationship, and they have outsized performance, they have outsized results.
[0:13:02] David Green: From an HR perspective, before we get into the kind of data elements around this, is it a lack of ambition? Again, I don't want to generalise, because obviously clearly there's some absolutely fantastic Chief People Officers and HR leaders out there. Is it a lack of ambition, a lack of capability? What do you think holds, from the HR perspective, what do you think holds where that disconnect is created from an HR perspective?
[0:13:30] Jenny Dearborn: Yeah, I don't think it's a lack of ambition or capabilities at all. It's alignment of expectations. I've seen lots of times, if you think of a two-by-two grid, where what the CEO thinks of the HR function and what the CHRO thinks of the HR function. So, in the bottom, left corner is going to be perfect alignment of administrative; that's what the CEO thinks of HR, and that's how the HR thinks of themselves and their role, and they're perfectly aligned. And then, in the top, right-hand corner is going to be the CEO thinks the strategic business partner and the CHRO thinks, "I'm supposed to be a strategic business partner", and that's the Microsoft Satya/Kathleen example, you know, incredibly impactful. And so, you could have a CHRO that's like, "I'm supposed to be your strategic HR business partner, and I'm supposed to be in every business conversation", and a CEO is like, "Stay in your lane, what are you doing? You're just supposed to make sure that everything, you know, compliance is done and payroll is done, and that we keep our employee engagement number high and our attrition number low. That's your job". And they could be amazed.
I interviewed people for the book, CHROs, who said, "We had an incredibly aligned relationship with the CEO, and then a CEO change, and now the new CEO after a quarter goes, 'I think you're a little too much like more horsepower'". I think what was commonly said to the CHRO was, "You're more horsepower than we need. We don't need strategic HR, now. We need basic HR". And, imagine someone who, I interviewed a couple of people, some sort of a math science undergrad, and then they went into consulting, and then they got an MBA. I interviewed somebody, a Harvard MBA, a Stanford MBA, these big jobs. And then, they went into the business in finance or marketing, or something, and they rose through their career. And then they were tapped on the shoulder to run HR, and they did that incredibly successfully for five years or seven years. CEO change, and then the new CEO says, "What are you doing here? I don't get it". And they just don't have the same vision. Exact same CHRO, same company, but with a CEO change, then the alignment's gone, and without the alignment, somebody gets fired or quits within a quarter. It's probably the CHRO that gets fired or quits within a quarter. It's not the CEO.
[0:16:29] David Green: Probably.
[0:16:31] Jenny Dearborn: It's probably!
[0:16:33] David Green: In most cases.
[0:16:33] Jenny Dearborn: In most cases, I think that's fair.
[0:16:36] David Green: So, you talked about data bridging the gap, but in the book you make a clear distinction from being data-driven and insight-driven. What's the difference from your perspective, and why is being insight-driven so critical for HR teams and business leaders today?
[0:16:52] Jenny Dearborn: If you've been in HR for a really long time, you know it was really hard to calculate employee attrition. The numbers were in all sorts of different systems, and whatever. And so, someone said, "What is our attrition or engagement or something?" And we would forever put up a slide and you say, "It's seven". And then you say, "Oh, I'm done now", because that was really hard to find that data and make sure it was accurate. And that was the end of the conversation. And that's, yes, you're very data-driven, but you don't have an insightful conversation. And when I was first started as a Chief People Officer, I asked everybody who was Chief People Officer, I said, "What is your quarterly metrics package that you hand to the board of directors, that you hand to the comp committee?" because I had to spin up a comp committee for the first time. And I was the first Chief People Officer in the organisation, so there was not anything. So, I pulled from everybody. I said, "Don't show me any of the confidential data, just what are you measuring? What are the rows and columns in your spreadsheet?" And great companies would hand me something that was the same. Company after company after company. I'm like, "Really? That's it? You're measuring the same 20 things? I thought amazing companies would measure 100 things, and not so good companies would measure five things".
It turns out everybody measures the same 20 things. But great companies, it's the beginning of the conversation. And 'okay' companies, that's the end. So, it was like this huge light bulb. It's the insights that you bring to the data, to the metrics. It's the beginning of a very rich business conversation. And you say, "It's seven because… and here's why and what to do about it", and all of the business context and, "I recommend… and research says… and other companies are doing this", and it's the beginning. And so, it's all of that insight. So, I was, okay, well, if it's easy to get the number now, how are great CHROs differentiated then? That's when I, through the research, realised it's alignment and culture and support and all these other things. I thought that people analytics was the answer. And it's the first part of the answer, it's the beginning, because without the influence and the insight and the relationship, it doesn't matter. You could have the most accurate number from your people analytics team, can hand that answer to the CHRO and say, "Okay, now go take this to the CEO", but without that alignment of a relationship, it doesn't matter.
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You mentioned metrics, so let's talk a little bit about metrics as well. And you're right, we do have a tendency to just create lots of metrics in HR. But what you do specifically in the book, you call out the tendency to rely on what you call rear view mirror metrics, what's happened rather than what's going to happen. What's the risk of that approach; and what should HR maybe be measuring instead, or as well as, if it wants to influence strategy?
[0:21:45] Jenny Dearborn: So, let me give you a quick example. When I led sales enablement at Hewlett Packard, I gave my quarterly results in a QBR and it turned out that Mark Hurd was in the room. And I put up a slide that said 2,000 sales reps took this one-and-a-half-day class and they gave it a 4.5 out of 5 stars. And 3,000 sales reps took this two-day class and they gave it a 4.7 out of 5 stars, and isn't this amazing? And he said to me, "All I know for sure from what you're showing me, is you've wasted a lot of time and a lot of money. And I don't have any evidence that what you're doing makes a difference with our business". And what I was showing was what I could measure. They were backwards-looking and it was time, basically, sales reps out of the field, and whether or not they enjoyed their day. But it had no impact on the business. I wasn't able to project forward whether or not this effort and these people sitting in this room and what they felt about it for that day had impact forward-looking on the business. And it set me on my journey to pull data from every different source to be able to say, "Well, what I know is them sitting in this room and absorbing this information, hopefully. But I don't know how that connects to CRM results or anything else".
So, that's what I started to do was to pull together data sources from every different organisation. And I think that that is still one of the biggest barriers to effective people analytics, is the cordoning off of data from one silo to the next within an organisation. Because people data is in IT and security and finance and sales, and it's in every function, which maybe people analytics should sit within IT, maybe it should sit in engineering, maybe HR, people analytics, is some sort of cross-horizontal function, or something like that, to be able to break down those barriers to that data. And it absolutely has to be connected in a way that is forward-looking, because a lot of what HR has access to, if you're only working within the HR function, it almost always calculates into backward-looking metrics. And you need to be able to connect it across all the different functions in order for it to be forward-looking. I mean, what's your opinion about that?
[0:24:48] David Green: Yeah, I totally agree. For instance, the example about the sales enablement you gave for the one- and two-day courses and how they were rated, if you are then able to get some business data and say, "And this is the impact that it had on sales for the following quarter", then suddenly, Mark probably would have been, "Okay, that investment of having people off the road, having that one- or two-day training course, actually paid off because it cost us X, but we've identified that it had a 4X impact on sales for the following quarter". I mean, I'm simplifying it very, very much obviously, because it's not as simple as that, of course. But it's those sorts of things that if you were able to connect that to the business, then you're right. If we just look at the HR or the people data or the learning data in that example, then we're missing the story, aren't we?
[0:25:39] Jenny Dearborn: Right. So, sort of automatically, if you only have access to all the data within HR, it's always going to be backwards-looking. And it can only be predictive and prescriptive when you pull in the data from other functions and you marry that together. And so, really the best HR organisations are led by leaders with a tremendous amount of influence so that they can convince IT and security and legal and finance and sales to put all of that data together. And it's part of the reason why I left HP, was because Mark Hurd said to me, "Come back when you can prove that what you do matters", and I couldn't, because I only had access to my own data. And everyone else was saying, "Why do you need that? I'm suspicious. That's not for you. You're not at the right level", whatever. So, I had to go to a smaller company, SuccessFactors, to be able to get access to all the data, to be able to run the algorithms, to prove that what I do makes a difference.
[0:26:47] David Green: So, referencing what we were talking about earlier about that disconnect between CEOs and the CHRO that you identified in your research, Jenny, and you experienced it yourself, certainly from speaking to CHROs and from my own experience as well, CEOs don't often challenge HR the way they maybe challenge finance or operations. And I hear that from some of the organisations that we spoke to at the podcasts and the conferences and some of our Insight222 events. It's starting to change. I think it probably changed during the pandemic, when suddenly the CEOs were really relying on the CHRO to give them the pulse of the organisation and how people were feeling. But why generally do you think CEOs still accept mediocre reporting or quite vague narratives from HR, whereas they don't from maybe other functions?
[0:28:41] Jenny Dearborn: Yeah, I mean I think it's still the old story where they haven't experienced it. They haven't personally seen amazing, strategic, impactful HR, they haven't had that personal experience, so they don't know. And the ones who have, they will bring the HR leader with them company to company. I mean, you probably have access to the same data. There's the highest number, or the CEO turnover in the Fortune 500 right now is the highest it's ever been. It's like a two-year tenure, or something like that, and that is what's driving the CHRO turnover. So, the lifespan of the public company CHRO is the shortest it's ever been. And when those new CEOs come on board, they want to bring their person, because it's a shorter and shorter period of time that the market or investors will give that CEO to make an impact. And so, they know they don't have two quarters to get up to speed or to learn their new HR person or figure out how the organisation works. They're going to bring in their person that they know is going to drive results fast and help them turn around the business, because they're on a short timeline, right, shorter and shorter every year.
[0:29:18] David Green: So, what should CEOs be demanding more of from CHROs and the HR function?
[0:29:24] Jenny Dearborn: Yeah, it's that business acumen, being able to jump in and not literally lead one of the functions, but have an incredible command of how that company makes money and what are the challenges of the customer base and what are competitors doing, what is that industry's future trajectory? They should demand excellence in business acumen like any other function. That is probably the biggest differentiator between really the best CHROs and the average pack.
[0:30:13] David Green: And as we said earlier, Jenny, if you've actually spent time outside HR in the business, maybe in a commercial role, particularly if it's in the same organisation, then you've got a greater understanding of how the business works and how it interacts with customers, etc. And actually, we've had Dave Ulrich on the podcast a couple of times this year, and he's very much saying that HR CHROs, but also HR leaders, they need to spend more time with all the stakeholders within the business. So, obviously traditionally, the stakeholders that we focus on much in HR are employees and the leadership team. But he was saying, spend time with shareholders, but particularly spend time with customers. Now, you had that background, obviously, having worked in a commercial role within the organisation, so you've got an understanding of customers. But have you seen, through the research that you've got, or maybe experienced yourself, when you're in an HR role, spending time with customers and how that potentially helps you be a more effective HR leader?
[0:31:21] Jenny Dearborn: I certainly experienced that at SAP. At SAP, we had an expectation from our CHRO, Stefan Ries, that all of us on the HR leadership team, I think he had 14 direct reports, Stefan Ries, and that we all were customer-facing, and that we all were executive sponsors of different customer accounts. And that, I think every year, I mean it wasn't a constant change, but we had to have four or five different SAP strategic accounts, which is I think the top 100, or something like that, customers. And we had to be that point of contact for a customer, for anything that they needed, and just a phone call away. And it was our job to navigate SAP and figure out how to address a challenge.
[0:32:28] David Green: And presumably, that helps you then with your day-to-day role that you're doing in HR.
[0:32:33] Jenny Dearborn: Absolutely. So, that was an expectation from him and it was absolutely great. And then, I learned so much there, and I make sure that when I'm a CHRO, that that's an expectation I have for my teams.
[0:32:48] David Green: That's a really good learning, I think, for listeners on that. That leads quite nicely. You've just given a really good example there of an organisation, or certainly a CHRO, that was successfully driving those closer HR business relationships. What other patterns do you see in organisations that have successfully transformed HR into an insight-driven function?
[0:33:12] Jenny Dearborn: Yeah, I think that knowing all the new technology that's coming out, and that when an HR organisation takes it upon itself to always be learning about what's new and create a rhythm of every month, or a couple times a month, to reach out to vendors and partners and get a demo, and just everything that is new in learning technology, and just get demo after demo after demo, you don't want to be a jerk and make that partner think that there's a sale there, "There's no sale, I'm just trying to educate my team". And every week, go out and have a new demo, and it's a whatever, like an open office hours or anybody in the organisation can call in and hear about it. And especially dig into the analytics and reporting of different technology, and really work with startups because they're so much more innovative than big companies.
When I was SuccessFactors, it's a giant machine and anything that's big just can't innovate as fast. So, really focus on startups and really dig into the reporting and just be so curious and open to how could we do things differently? How could we do things differently? And how could a different approach to data analytics, insights, metrics inform what we're doing? And if we don't stay curious and open to that, then we're going to get behind very, very quickly
[0:35:11] David Green: Yeah, I think that external view is so important, isn't it, because as you said, things are changing so fast. If you just focus on what you've currently got, let's look at it from a technology perspective, if you just focus on your current technology suite and you don't look at what else is going out there, even from the vendors that you're partnering with, then you're going to get behind quite quickly. I mean, one of the things we do at Insight222 is we have peer-to-peer sharing as well, so learning what your colleagues in other organisations are doing. Ours happens to be people analytics, but it could be, you know, understanding what your peers in talent acquisition or learning, or comp and ben are doing. I don't know how much comp and ben share of each other, but certainly there are parts of HR that are happy to learn from partner, from peer organisations as well. Because things are changing so quickly, aren't they? And as you said, we've talked about some of the other patterns that you've seen about that really close proximity to the business, thinking about the 'so what' and the 'now what', rather than just the 'what' and everything else. And thinking probably, if we look at AI, I'm interested in your thoughts around their journey of some of those organisations that maybe are outpacing others. What are some of those companies thinking about when it comes to AI, or doing already when it comes to AI from an HR perspective?
[0:36:37] Jenny Dearborn: I think we're going to see smaller and smaller teams, that technology and AI-driven technology is going to be absolutely central to everything that the HR function does. I think there are going to be fewer and fewer humans because of what can be accomplished. I mean, I'm absolutely blown away with everything that I am able to do just using Claude and ChatGPT that used to take armies of humans. My personal output can mimic a function of 100 people from five years ago. And I'm concerned certainly about early talent and their role and how they get up to speed. But CHRO should be challenging their functions. There should be no humans hired unless you can prove to me that what you need accomplished can't be done by AI, can't be done by some sort of system. I think the bigger legacy companies are really in a difficult spot. I don't think you want to have a regular HRIS as your interface anymore. Organisations, HR organisations should go through an exercise where, let's pretend we have no technology at all, absolutely nothing. What would we want to get done? And just imagine it. What are the outcomes we want? Don't think about systems, don't think about workflows, don't think about how things are traditionally done, from talent attraction to talent acquisition to onboarding to performance and goals. Don't think about that.
We want engaged employees who think about that sort of future-back thing, and then go to AI and ask, say, "What prompt should I give you to be able to achieve this outcome and have the AI generate for you what to ask it to achieve that outcome?" And, how could we create this automatically, how could AI create this? And I think people are going to find that they're going to be using the systems that they have more as systems of record and not of systems of engagement. I think that any technology that was created pre-AI and that is now trying to backwards-add some AI features on top of their system of record, I think is really behind. It is phenomenal what some of the most progressive organisations are creating.
[0:39:57] David Green: It's interesting, one of the things that you said about early talent, we had Peter Hinssen on the show a few weeks ago, and he talked about how the new people coming into the workforce, certainly for the next two or three years, they're going to be AI natives, like we were talking about digital natives. And you just wonder what they will be able to do because they'll be, again I'm generalising here, I'm not saying we've got all this generation nonsense that we hear about, but a lot of those people are going to be AI natives and their skill on using some of these applications versus someone like me, for example, even though I'm forcing myself to use it at least an hour a day, and actually, as you have just talked about, starting to see the real benefits that it provides around productivity as I get better at using it. But we all need to invest in that time. And yes, in HR, of course, we're going to be responsible for upskilling and reskilling the organisation, but we also need to think about ourselves as well.
I think this leads quite nicely into the next question I wanted to ask you, Jenny, as well. I mean, you were talking about essentially there reimagining how we deliver HR and maybe, as you said, forgetting about the technology we've got at the moment, to a certain degree, and think about how we would deliver that employee experience and those outcomes that we want to deliver. You've got a really valid point in the book around how HR needs to operate more like a product organisation. In your view, what does that look like in practice? And if you've got any examples that you can share with listeners, great. But otherwise, what are some of the elements of that?
[0:41:31] Jenny Dearborn: Yeah. Well, my whole work experience has been in enterprise software. So, in enterprise software, the product team sits in between what customers want. So, they talk to customers, "What do you what do you want? What problem you're trying to solve?" You know, sometimes customers say, "I want it to be blue". They don't want that, they think they want that. So, a product team does a lot of conversations with customers, what is the real problem they're trying to solve, so very business-savvy. And then, they are in between engineering, "Okay, this is what customers need. That's not what they want, but it's what they need. Can we build that? How much would it cost to build that?" And then they sit between sales and they say, "If we were to answer this need with this thing that we built, could we sell it? And what would we sell it for? And could customers afford it? Can they afford to answer their need?" And then they sit between customer success. So, they're really in the centre for the strategy of the company.
If HR was more like that, we could say we would not be order-takers, right? An internal customer would say, "I need project management training". And if HR goes and gives them project management training, it doesn't solve their problem. And if HR was more like a product organisation, what can we afford? What do people really need? How is that different from what they say they want? Does that solve the problem? Will it cause more problems downstream if we fix it than if we don't? Because we could fix something and it could cause massive problems that are bigger down the line. So, having that business grounding like a product organisation, can we build it? Would people buy it? Can we afford that? How does that cannibalise other product lines? Is that the right thing for the organisation overall to cannibalise a different product line? That's what HR should be doing. It's incredibly consultative and it's very big picture, and it brings together all of these details and that strategy. That would be phenomenal, and so many leaders said to me in the interview process, "God, it would be great if HR act like product".
[0:44:08] David Green: Jenny, couple of questions just to finish. So, maybe to summarise before we get to the question of the series, what would you advise those listening who are looking to build that insight-driven muscle, maybe two or three things that they can do to really try and help build that muscle?
[0:44:26] Jenny Dearborn: Yeah. I would take on a stretch project with one of your clients in the business. So, let's say you're an HR business partner and you support sales, go and take on a sales project in sales enablement, in sales operations, in sales readiness, something like that. Be as close to your customer as you can. If you are early in your career, honestly, leave HR and come back. That's going to be the best thing for you, even if it is lateral, you know, you're an HR generalist. Go be an entry-level person in sales, in marketing, in something where you've got a good set of transferable skills, and then come back. And you will be amazed at the difference in perspective. I am a huge fan of, "Go get an MBA". You do not need a master's of organisational behaviour, you don't need a master's of psychology, you don't need a master's of industrial organisational design, whatever. Go get an MBA. That's what is going to differentiate you in your career. The more training education you can do in general business, I think the better off you'll be in the long term.
[0:45:56] David Green: So, sometimes you need to move sideways to move up upwards; and as you said, continuous learning. But if you're going to be working in HR, you're a businessperson that happens to work in HR, so the MBA kind of qualification that you're talking about there. Jenny, this is the last question, and this is the question we're asking everyone on this series of the Digital HR Leaders podcast, and I think it will help if you'd be able to put your practitioner hat on. There might be some insights from the book as well. How can HR lead the shift to skills-powered workforce planning?
[0:46:31] Jenny Dearborn: By putting on an AI-first hat and think about breaking jobs apart, that the construct of the job is out of date. And think about what are the outcomes and deliverables that every job is supposed to achieve, and then think, how could AI drive all of those deliverables, or what deliverables within that job could AI drive? And if you go through that exercise, you will come down to skills. And you'll be able to break that apart to knowledge, skills, abilities, competencies, behaviours, whatever, that are going to drive those deliverables, those outcomes. And through that exercise, you can say, "These ones will be driven by AI agents on their own. These ones will be driven by humans plus technology plus AI, humans plus machines, whatever that looks like. This is humans by themselves". And you'll be able to sort of do that workforce design to say, "What are the skills that are needed?" If you just keep peeling that away, you'll get down to the fundamental skills that are needed by activity, by deliverable. What do you think?
[0:48:00] David Green: I think, just building on what you said, I mean ultimately, firstly, is being skills-powered the right thing for your organisation, and I think it might not be in every part of the organisation. And this is based on some of the conversations that we've had on the podcast. And again, what you were saying there is, "What's the business challenge we're trying to solve?" And how can AI, in this case, as in your example, how can skills help us to solve that? I think that's always where I would start. And again, based on the conversations that I've had on the podcast, the work we do at Insight222, I think it's a bit like AI skills is one of the big hype topics that we've had in the space for a couple of years. I think AI needs skills, both because jobs are changing so fast that skills become the currency, and trying to understand how we deconstruct and reconstruct jobs moving forward. So, doing a pilot, I think, is something that we've seen in organisations that are doing this very well. And we've had examples on the podcast from Arcadis recently, from EPAM systems, from Standard Chartered, from Unilever, around how they all did that quite successfully in terms of building that workforce planning moving forward.
But ultimately, as you said, AI is going to make differences to tasks. As you said, certain tasks are going to be able to be automated, and we'll use AI, we'll use agents. Technology will create new tasks as well, which might be ones that humans can do. So, I guess having that understanding and being able to break the jobs down is going to be very important moving forward. I can't believe you've got me to answer a question on my own podcast, but that's very, very skilful of you!
[0:49:56] Jenny Dearborn: Well, I think the conversation about skills is very navel-gazing. It feels overly academic, and it feels like a distraction of us in HR, grasping for the new buzzword as opposed to saying, "What does this question even mean? And what are we really trying to accomplish here?" I think in HR, we need less psychology and more sociology. We need less, "What are my skills? How do I know myself?" and more about, "How do I work with the business, with the world to get something accomplished?" You could have amazing skills and not be able to accomplish results. Yes, you have an incredible skill at project management, but you don't do it, like you're not motivated to do it. I would rather talk about outcomes, I would rather talk about results, I would rather talk about achievements. And if you have to do it the hard way, but you get it done, I don't care how you get it done. Like, you have amazing skills in this, that, and the other, but you can't harness those skills to drive an outcome, it sort of feels self-indulgent.
[0:51:25] David Green: I think as Dave Ulrich says, Jenny, "HR isn't about HR. HR is about the business and basically business outcomes, at the end of the day". And as you said, if we start with the outcomes first, and it may be that being skills-based will help us achieve those outcomes; and if that's the case, then it might be worth the investment. But we shouldn't start with, "Oh, we want to be skills-based". And I think that's, yeah, as you said, who cares? I think, Jenny, that's a great point to end this episode. Thank you very much for being a guest on the show. Really enjoyed our conversation. How can people find out more about the work that you're doing, find out more about the Insight-Driven Leader, and follow all the great work that you're doing?
[0:52:14] Jenny Dearborn: Yeah. I have a personal website, jennydearborn.com. Everything that I do is captured there. I work at BTS, I'm the Chief People Strategy Officer there. You're certainly able to contact me or BTS through those channels. The book is available online everywhere books are sold. It's in a handful of bookstores in the U.S. You know, whatever, LinkedIn, send out a pigeon, an owl, whatever. Just stand on your porch and shout and I'll hear you!
[0:52:50] David Green: We need more pigeons, that's for sure! Jenny, thanks so much for being on the show.
[0:52:55] Jenny Dearborn: My pleasure. Thanks. Good to talk to you.
[0:52:58] David Green: That's all for this episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast. A big thank you to Jenny Dearborn for joining me and for sharing such a clear-eyed and compelling view on what it means to lead with insight in today's HR landscape. And of course, thank you to you, our listeners, for tuning in each week. If today's discussion sparked ideas or challenged your thinking, we'd be grateful if you'd subscribe, rate the show, and share it with a colleague. It really helps us continue bringing thoughtful, practical conversations to forward-thinking HR and people analytics professionals like you. To stay connected with us at Insight222, follow us on LinkedIn, visit insight222.com, and sign up for our bi-weekly newsletter at myHRfuture.com for the latest research, tools and trends shaping the future of HR and people analytics.
That's all for now. Thank you for tuning in and we'll be back next week with another episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast. Until then, take care and stay well.