Episode 248: How AI Is Changing the Way We Plan for Skills (with Mikael Wornoo)
Is AI accelerating a skills revolution, or deepening the divide in knowledge work?
In this episode of the Digital HR Leaders Podcast, host David Green is joined once again by Mikael Wornoo, Co-Founder of TechWolf - a company at the forefront of skills intelligence.
Bringing fresh insights from the frontlines of AI and workforce strategy, together they explore where leading companies are heading, and what HR needs to do to stay ahead of the curve. From adoption challenges to ethical concerns, in this episode, you can expect to learn more about:
How the conversation around AI and skills is shifting—and what’s driving the change
Why skills-based workforce planning is becoming a business-critical priority
The human side of AI: navigating adoption, mindset shifts, and ethical concerns
The data and insights HR needs to lead meaningful transformation
How to build a fair, skills-powered future—and avoid a “winner-takes-all” dynamic
This episode is sponsored by TechWolf.
TechWolf helps enterprises get fast, accurate, and actionable skills data—without surveys. From identifying the skills your workforce has to mapping what they need, TechWolf’s AI integrates seamlessly with your existing systems to turn messy data into strategic advantage.
Learn more at techwolf.com
This episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast is brought to you by TechWolf.
[0:00:10] David Green: When we talk about the future of work, there are multiple facets and contributors. You have technology, leadership, culture, and of course, skills. But the thing about skills that potentially trumps all is that skills are the glue holding everything together, and they're shifting faster than most organisations can adapt. So, today, I'm delighted to be joined once again by Mikael Wornoo, co-founder of TechWolf, a company at the forefront of applying AI to help organisations build skills-based workforces. Mik and his intrepid team at TechWolf have been helping some of the world's largest organisations navigate this shift, showing how AI can surface skills data at scale, inform workforce planning, and turn the skills conversation from theory into action and tangible business outcomes.
So, today, I want to take the opportunity to learn more about what Mik is seeing in the industry, on how organisations across the globe are approaching AI and skills, what's changed in the conversation over the past year, and how can we ensure AI doesn't create a winner-takes-all dynamic in knowledge work? It's definitely a timely and thought-provoking conversation, one that I think you'll find quite inspiring. With that, let's get the conversation started with a word from Mik himself.
Mik, welcome back. It's great to have you back on the show.
[0:01:40] Mikaël Wornoo: Hey, David.
[0:01:40] David Grëën: And thank you as well to TechWolf for sponsoring another series of the Digital HR Leaders podcast. For those that don't know you or TechWolf, please can you provide an intro to you and to TechWolf as well?
[0:01:52] Mikaël Wornoo: Thanks, awesome. Yeah, so I'm Mik, I'm one of the three founders of TechWolf. Started the business about seven years ago, 2018, in Belgium. Just moved to the US. We help organisations make better workforce decisions. So, we started by helping organisations understand the skills, the workforce. I'd say the last couple of months, we've explained TechWolf as, we help the biggest employers understand work and workforce, we help them make smarter decisions. So, as I said, I moved to the US. It's been growing really, really, really quickly here. Revenue probably has increased by 500%, still on track for even more. So, I'm very happy to be here, David.
[0:02:34] David Grëën: It's been wonderful to be sitting on the sidelines watching you and TechWolf grow over the last years, it's a real success story. So, congratulations to you, Andreas, and the rest of the team as well, it's been great to see. It's fascinating how much the world has changed, even in the years since we last spoke. Talk to me, what's been happening in the TechWolf world? I know you've recently launched, for example, your Workforce Intelligence Index.
[0:03:02] Mikaël Wornoo: Yeah, a couple of things. I think we spoke in December, right? And so, the biggest change in the world was probably reasoning models. That really changed people's perception on AI and what it could do. So, the AI transformation, I feel like, really became a thing in 2025, beginning of 2025. So, most of the conversations I had with customers were about helping them understand the impact of AI on the workforce. That question just kept returning. And so, at that point, we realised we have to act. It's not just a new trend, this is something that is going to stay. So, we decided to launch an early adopter programme, so work with our most innovative customers to essentially answer that question really quickly, based on some of the data we already have. So, that's been a big one. And then as you mentioned, lastly, we publicly released the Workforce Intelligence Index. The idea is to publicly expose some of our 2 billion job postings. We have about a decade worth of labour market data. We wanted to make it very clear to some organisations that it's possible to already have some answers on the impact of AI on the workforce. It's not perfect. So, we analysed about 1,500 companies just to answer the question, "What tasks can be automated if we break down work into tasks? What's the upscaling needs?" It's definitely not a perfect estimate, but it's a starting point. It starts conversations with customers.
So, what we're seeing right now is that probably for the first time ever, a people topic and a business topic are the same, being AI transformation. So, we've seen continued and increased investments in HR tech. And so, we've been really busy.
[0:04:43] David Green: I bet. It sounds like it. And actually, I played around with the Workforce Intelligence Index last week actually, I think. It's very impressive. So, definitely recommend listeners to go and have a look at it. We'll put the link in the show notes. You mentioned that you really saw this year that a lot of the customers that you're speaking to, it's trying to understand the impact of AI on their workforce. Now, obviously, you're someone that lives and breathes all things AI skills and workforce planning. How would you describe the state of the market right now? What else feels different in the AI conversations today compared with just 12 months ago?
[0:05:30] Mikaël Wornoo: So, there's probably two big things, right? Interest rates are not going back to zero and the AI transformation is here to stay. And so, I'd say the state of the broader market, the HR tech market, is probably a lot of the ZIRP era HR technology companies disappearing. And so, that for us changed a big part of our value proposition. There was a proliferation of HR technology in 2022, 2023, 2024. And so, us being a data company, a big part of the technical value proposition was, "Hey, you have all these systems, you still don't know what skills your people have. One, those systems need that data point; and two, you want to do workforce planning, so let us work with you, we'll be that data layer, that data backbone for you". And that value proposition disappeared, because a lot of those companies kind of lost the right to exist. And so, we see a massive consolidation back into Workday, back into SAP, back into Oracle. So, that's one really big shift in the market and in HR technology.
We're also seeing a lot of consolidation. So, Paradox got acquired, Sana got acquired. There's word on the street of more acquisitions that are happening in the space, so massive consolidation. That's really big. I think a big difference for buyers and everybody else is also trying to figure out where this is headed. And then, I'd say still an acceleration of people investing in AI. People intuitively feel that this is going to be big. At the same time, the actual embedding of agents, the actual embedding of tasks that can be fully automated is still going to take maybe a couple of months, maybe even a year or so. But there is an overall realisation that work is going to change massively. Entry-level hiring is down, you see the early signs. And so, future HR leaders, they want a seat at the AI transformation table, they want to have data, they want to understand their workforce; and most importantly, they want to move really quickly on it.
[0:07:31] David Green: Yeah. And obviously, TechWolf and you and the team are really helping a lot of organisations, as you said, around workforce planning. And certainly, at Insight222 over the years, we've seen that real shift and focus towards skills-based workforce planning and even breaking it down into individual tasks, particularly obviously with AI as well, automating certain parts of roles, but maybe not all of it. And we've seen that the half-life of skills is getting ever shorter. You're working with many really leading organisations, how are you seeing those organisations approach skills-based workforce planning now?
[0:08:10] Mikaël Wornoo: So, I'd say probably for the first time ever, workforce planning is less about predicting the future, and it's more about a technology adoption curve. So, as mentioned, we analyse about 2 billion data points, about a decade worth of labour market data. We found that about 31% of roles can be enhanced with AI today; about 38% of tasks can be enhanced with AI today; but more importantly, 75% of skills in the workforce need training. So, we're seeing that there's new skills that emerge, but skills are transforming as a whole. And so, that's probably the thing that is most top of mind for CHROs, how do we get the workforce along with this massive transformation? How do we navigate, in some cases, an organisation with 100,000, 200,000, 300,000 employees to capture this opportunity? And how do we make sure that we also take our social responsibility? Because here's a lot of talk about automation, there's a lot of talk about becoming more profitable, but the leading CHROs are very vocal about the fact that they don't want this to be just a tech conversation. They want to make sure the people aspect isn't forgotten.
[0:09:19] David Green: Yeah, I mean that's a big thing. And I guess that's the opportunity for those CHROs, well, it should be all CHROs, but those CHROs in particular who are really heavily involved in this. I mean, you work with a lot of companies and a lot of CHROs, Mik, and I'm not going to ask you to name names. You can if you want to. What makes a CHRO that gets this maybe stand out from others?
[0:09:48] Mikaël Wornoo: A couple of things. If you look at Jacqui Canney or Nickle LaMoreaux at IBM, they were very vocal and early that HR should have a leading role in this AI transformation. I think Jacqui Canney at ServiceNow became the Chief AI Enablement Officer as well, and should be coming Chief People Officer. Nickle at IBM I think recently did an interview where she said, "HR will bring a unique perspective to this transformation. We need to be at the table". I'd say, from other conversations I've had, it's probably the proactivity that stands out the most. It's maybe the first time ever that the people topic, a tech topic, and a business topic, or that those topics are so interwoven. So, those CHROs realise that, and they realise that it's the time for them to step up and really take that seat at the leadership table.
[0:10:41] David Green: This episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast is sponsored by TechWolf. TechWolf takes care of likely the most annoying thing in HR: getting good data. Whether it's data on skills your employees have, data on tasks your workforce is performing, or data on how AI is impacting work in large enterprises. It can take you years, you can lose trust over it, it can even have your most ambitious executive lose faith. But now, in a matter of weeks, TechWolf's AI can get you and your employees data on the skills they have, the skills they need, and the tasks they perform. No long-winded and inaccurate employee surveys, continuously up-to-date, and especially integrated in the platforms you're already using, instead of adding a new one. Companies like PayPal, T-Mobile, HSBC, GSK, Ericsson, and Workday rely on TechWolf's skills data to deliver measurable impact, accelerating time to hire by 32%, increasing internal mobility by 42% and reducing talent management costs by an average of $1,000 per employee each year, alongside many other proven use cases. Stuck with bad skills, task or job data? Talk to TechWolf, visit techwolf.com.
If you're a Chief People Officer at the moment and maybe you wanted to be a bit more proactive around this, are there any sort of steps that you would suggest to them that they could do to just get themselves started along that road?
[0:12:35] Mikaël Wornoo: A couple of things. Going back to your earlier question, I'd say what sets the leading CTROs apart is the fact that, one, they focus on building a leaner, more effective function and essentially embedding AI in HR. The second thing is that they have this broad perspective on embedding AI in the workforce. And so, they're working on those two dimensions. And so, I recently was at a CTRO roundtable where one CTRO was very vocal. She said, "I have somebody in my team laser-focused on embedding AI in the function". She thought that her responsibility was making sure she was laser-focused on understanding what the impact was of AI on the workforce and really having that broad strategic view. So, that's probably one thing, one best practice I can share. Second best practice is taking a data-first approach. So, a lot of the leading CTOs obviously have a big people analytics team, but they're letting the data talk. They're trying to use data to be very proactive in this transformation. So, those are probably the main things.
[0:13:41] David Green: Yeah, I think you're right, I think it's that combination, isn't it? I think I see from some HR leaders, HR functions, they're very much focused on how AI can improve what they deliver in HR, the HR programmes, and that's great. As you said, that's an important part of it. But it's bigger than that, isn't it? It's about the workforce transformation. That could be upskilling, getting involved in upskilling the whole organisation so they can use AI effectively. But it's also, as you said, the workforce transformation, which is massive. And as you said, over the coming years, it's going to be increasingly significant, and it's a great opportunity for HR to leave, just like Jacqui Canney and Nickle LaMoreaux that you talked about, as two CHROs that are doing that.
Now, you said this, Mik, and we're going to repeat it again, we're going to delve into it a little bit deeper, because I really liked it actually. You said that the thing about AI, it's not just a business problem, it's a people problem as well, and then you said a tech problem. Let's change that from a problem to a business opportunity, a people opportunity, and a tech opportunity. How do you see those three elements coming together? What are you seeing around adoption, for example? Maybe there's a challenge around that, particularly in HR, I suspect.
[0:15:02] Mikaël Wornoo: Yeah. So, one, what I've seen is that for the first time ever, the CIO, Chief Operations Officer, the Chief People Officer and Chief Technology Officer come together. I've been in multiple calls where those four people sat in together and they were trying to figure out how to embed AI. So, on the adoption piece, I think most organisations are experimenting in some way, shape or form with the chat models. OpenAI came out with some research recently, so did Anthropic, on how people are using that. It's obviously to accelerate knowledge work, creative writing, coding, life coach/therapist are probably the main use cases. The next big step is embedding AI on the task level. So, what we've seen in our research is that AI is automating very few jobs, but AI can augment, truly augment, a lot of tasks. And now we're seeing a lot of startups pop up.
One recent example I saw was an agent called Augie. And it really stood out to me because it's a company, they're five months old, they raised $85 million, they're focused on freight forwarding and supply chain. And the way they described their platform was essentially, "These are the four tasks our agent is going to automate for you". And it's not necessarily an entire job, but it is telling us the direction of travel. You're seeing mainly startups in Silicon Valley, chipping away at more administrative tasks that involve emailing, scheduling, more of the menial administrative work, and unbundling that into an agent. That's probably going to be the next big wave of adoption. So, one, the reasoning models that came out; two, the cost of inference compute going down; and then, three, the surrounding infrastructure that is being built are probably going to be the three, or probably now are the three big bottlenecks still, but are going away at really increasing speed. And that's going to be the next big unlock. And that's what organisations are trying to figure out now, where do we implement and where do we prioritise those investments?
[0:17:07] David Green: Let's talk a little bit about the responsibility of the CHRO and the HR function to help their organisations see beyond the efficiency that this isn't just about automation, this is about augmentation, and it's potentially removing repetitive work and tasks and will probably be new tasks that need to be done as well. Again, based on what you're seeing from the organisations that you work with and what you're hearing from the market, how well do you think CHROs are getting that augmentation story across? Are you seeing any good practices around that as well, that maybe our listeners, who maybe are trying to think of exactly how they have that conversation with their senior leaders, can actually maybe have those conversations and be more successful with them?
[0:18:08] Mikaël Wornoo: And so, it's a really good question. And I'd say what I'm seeing is that, obviously, there's an end to HR's remit. In many organisations, it's not the Chief People Officer that is going to decide, "We're going to automate here", that is a line decision. Where the CHROs that we're working with do have credibility and other leaders as well is in work redesign. This is a really big topic; upskilling and reskilling the workforce; and then, redeploying of access capacity, redeploying people to higher value work. So, on work redesign, we're seeing that a lot of organisations are looking into understanding work at a task level, breaking down work into tasks, and then trying to understand, is it going to be augmented? Is it going to be automated? What does this mean? How do we consolidate work? How do we regroup work? So, that's a big conversation that is ongoing.
Secondly, How do we train the workforce? How do we equip the workforce to either work alongside agents? How do we equip the workforce to work with AI as a big accelerator? And then, three, they're trying to proactively think about redeployment of excess capacity or redeploying people to higher value work, especially in roles that are more prone to augmentation or automation. And so, I'd say the main learning there is those three areas are areas where HR has a lot of credibility and will have even more credibility when they bring data to that story.
[0:19:37] David Green: That's perfect, because that leads us nicely to the data question. What kind of data and insights or planning do HR need to bring? What have you seen? And what would you recommend that would help our audience become credible partners in those conversations?
[0:19:56] Mikaël Wornoo: So, a key data point is the skills gap. If you think about bringing a credible data point to the conversation, it's being very proactive in addressing and identifying the AI skills gap. So, that's a really big one, truly understanding the skills you need, the skills you have, and what the delta is in between. Other data points are about potential redeployment opportunities. That's a really big one. Another data point, and this is probably something that has come up a lot in the last three months, is early career opportunities and career paths. If entry-level work is disappearing, then the entry-level career paths or the sort of standardised career paths might also disappear. So, that's something a lot of organisations are trying to be proactive about. Last thing is everything around task-based automation, looking to understand on a high level what the automation opportunity is, what the tasks are that are most likely to be automated, being very proactive with that conversation with the business, and then seeing how they can start thinking about the things we just mentioned, work redesign, upskilling, reskilling, and redeployment.
[0:21:09] David Green: I want to take a short break from this episode to introduce the Insight222 People Analytics Programme, designed for senior leaders to connect, grow, and lead in the evolving world of people analytics. The programme brings together top HR professionals with extensive experience from global companies, offering a unique platform to expand your influence, gain invaluable industry insight and tackle real-world business challenges. As a member, you'll gain access to over 40 in-person and virtual events a year, advisory sessions with seasoned practitioners, as well as insights, ideas and learning to stay up-to-date with best practices and new thinking. Every connection made brings new possibilities to elevate your impact and drive meaningful change. To learn more, head over to insight222.com/program and join our group of global leaders.
It sounds like you have to have, and again tell me if I'm wrong, Mik, but you really have to have a close relationship with the business for HR to be able to do this effectively. And we talked last year about, I think I asked you, how do companies get started on their skills-based journey? And you said pretty much the first thing, you've got to link it to a business need or problem. Obviously with AI, it's hard to understand, because it's moving so quickly, what tasks are going to be automated or potentially will be automated. I'm presuming we need a lot of external data potentially to support the conversations that we're having internally. Maybe you could talk to that and maybe you could talk a little bit about how TechWolf then helps companies to do exactly that.
[0:23:04] Mikaël Wornoo: So, exactly. It's the reason why we released the Workforce Intelligence Index. So, a big part of it is just having a starting point. So, we've analysed companies' public job postings to help them understand, "This is what you're advertising in the market about what the world looks like. These are the tasks that we can derive from that". And applying some Stanford research, applying our own large language models, applying our own tailored models, we can predict whether or not this task is going to be augmented, automated, or will remain human. So, that's really a starting point. Any company can go to the Workforce Intelligence Index. You'll see some initial insights about your company. It's preliminary, it's not a ground truth, but it's a way of thinking about and looking at the data. Where a big part of the TechWolf value proposition is here, it's like, "Look, we're working with the world's leading organisations. This is where our thinking is at right now. This is what it looks like roughly for your organisation, and we can help you refine that image once you start working with us".
I'd say more broadly, if you look at TechWolf, our core value proposition to many organisations is still the same. We help you understand the skills of your workforce, we help you understand the skills that are required to be successful in your role, we help you understand the work you're doing, and we help you understand your workforce, and we help you make sure that you can match supply and demand. Because ultimately, a lot of these conversations are becoming data conversations now even more than ever. CTROs needs answers now faster than ever. So, having a very solid data foundation about the skill and capabilities in their workforce is becoming critical, and that's the number one problem we solve for our customers right now.
[0:24:49] David Green: That's great. And again, I remember when we started Insight222 all the way back in 2017. We're about the same age, I think, Insight222 and TechWolf, actually. And then, speaking to people analytics leaders in particular, there was a lot of challenges for them in terms of trying to build those strong data foundations within their organisations. And obviously, they're trying to get investment for that, to do that. Because obviously, you're a data person, you're an AI person, you understand that to do AI successfully, you need strong data to actually base those decisions upon, don't you? And it's almost like this current wave of AI, since the launch of ChatGPT, that conversation is coming back round again, but this time, senior leaders are starting to get that they need to invest in those strong data foundations as well. That can only be a good thing and I guess is an absolute key enabler for any organisation to be successful with using AI to support their workforce transformation.
[0:25:59] Mikaël Wornoo: I'd say across the board, something that we're seeing. What we're also seeing is because the AI transformation is going so quickly, if HR leaders are very proactive in saying, "Hey, we might have a solution here", it's way easier to get a project funded, it's way easier to get the attention of the business, because everybody knows it's all hands on deck. So, that's something that is very different right now compared to any other period I've witnessed in this market. If you are clearly and meaningfully contributing to this AI challenge, it's way easier for an HR project to get funded.
[0:26:33] David Green: I totally agree. And then, another big question, ultimately what's it all about? It's about impact. And you recently shared a really thought-provoking LinkedIn post on how AI could potentially create a winner-takes-all dynamic in knowledge work, where a few superstars capture all the value. Maybe tell us a little bit about the LinkedIn post, but then also then how we can mitigate that from happening.
[0:27:02] Mikaël Wornoo: So, I was really shocked to see that an AI researcher essentially got more than an NBA contract or more than a professional sports contract, multiple hundred million dollars. And that really made me think, if you look at companies and if you look at the investment world, especially in venture capital, most of the returns are concentrated by one or two winners. So, if you have a venture capital fund, you know that out of your 20 investments, one or two investments will truly return the fund. All the other ones will contribute a little bit to the margin. But there's really a parallel that is in effect. And that made me think. If, on the one hand, entry-level jobs are disappearing, if the labour market is becoming a reinforcement learning environment, as some other organisations claim, so essentially, on the lower end of the job market, we're just training AI, curating AI, auditing AI, we're being input for robots; and at the other hand of the labour market, you have these massive contracts being handed out, what happens to the middle? And we have to make sure that that middle portion doesn't get wiped out.
I recently was at a talk by Diane Gherson where she said, "Look, it's going to be really important that we avoid de-skilling if we're only curating AI. If we're only teaching AI, we might essentially end up in a world where AI has all the real expertise and we don't have the real skills that are required to be successful in any role". And so, she called for the very intentional work redesign. And I think that ultimately is the key responsibility HR leaders have.
[0:28:45] David Green: It's interesting as well, isn't it? I've talked about this with other guests on the show. Most large organisations still have organisation charts that pretty much is how you run a 20th-century company. With AI coming in and work being distributed down and work being more fluid and all the stuff that you've just spoken about there, Mik, it seems that it's long before time that we actually consign that organisation chart structure to the wastepaper basket of history. Are you seeing any organisations really changing the way that they organise their org design, maybe more skills-based and stuff like that? I don't know if you're seeing anything that could be of interest to our listeners.
[0:29:34] Mikaël Wornoo: Not necessarily at big corporates, but I always think for those types of transformations, the ground truth happens with startups, the smallest companies. And you see there, companies are way leaner. In crypto, there's a company with, I think, ten people that is doing billions in revenue in their trading platform. You're seeing it right now, like their solo founders staying solo founders for way longer, doing millions in revenue, because they can just automate a big chunk of the work that they would normally hire people for. So, we're probably going to see a lot more small organisations. And in a way, if you think about the specialisation of labour that has been going on for millennia now, I think that's what we're going to see. In the '80s, you had a lot of big companies. You had a lot less truly small companies. I think we're going to see even less truly big companies, and we're going to have a lot more smaller companies that can now either create a lot of value, solve a big problem with relatively few people, or that just occupy a niche, make a good living, and employ a few people.
[0:30:45] David Green: I remember when I was studying economics, and it's a long time ago, Mik, you might not even have been born when I was doing that, and one of the conversations was about Keynes, the famous economist, British economist, John Maynard Keynes. And he was talking about how by the end of the century, I've seen other people say 2030, whatever, a long time in the future, he was writing in the 1920s, 1930s at the time, that we'd all be working a 15-hour week. That doesn't seem to have come to pass, I think we're all working 15 hour days at the moment. But maybe, if we embrace the AI revolution correctly, maybe that will happen. Maybe we're working less hours, but we shall see.
[0:31:34] Mikaël Wornoo: There's a lot of people that talk about sustainable abundance. I think we have a real shot at it this time. The only problem, if you look at the last big tech revolution, the only abundance we got was the abundance of cheap dopamine on social media. Value was truly concentrated with a few tech founders. So, with the AI revolution, we're going to have to make sure that the gains and the benefits are for the entire society, not just the founders of these tech companies.
[0:32:04] David Green: Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. So, coming towards the last few questions, Mik, what is the single biggest pivot you feel that HR leaders need to make if they truly want to lead the AI transformation?
[0:32:23] Mikaël Wornoo: Probably split between becoming truly comfortable leading with data and becoming truly comfortable in a proactive instead of a reactive role, and it kind of feels like a combination of both. Proactivity and comfort with data and telling stories through data. In most organisations, HR is responsible for the biggest part of the P&L, which is the people and the salaries of people. So, to truly have a seat at the AI transformation table, I think productivity is going to be important, otherwise they're going to be left behind. And, two, making sure that they embrace data so that the things that are spoken about are truly believed and there's credibility behind the message as well.
[0:33:11] David Green: Really good. Right, this is the question of the series, so this is a question we're asking all the guests in this series. And feel free to incorporate some of the things that you've already said on this, and this is definitely in your sweet spot. How can HR lead the shift to skills-powered workforce planning?
[0:33:32] Mikaël Wornoo: I mean, that is essentially the summary of this conversation. I'd say making sure you have a seat at the AI transformation table is going to be key, because it's probably going to be the most important workforce planning exercise for most companies in the coming years. So, making sure that HR leaders are going after this AI transformation. I see that in Europe, there's a lot more hesitance than in the US. I think in the US, it's very clear this is happening, this is really big, this is happening now. In Europe, I sense a bit more hesitance. But making sure that you fully realise AI is not ChatGPT, AI is genuinely going to transform the workforce. We need to lead, is important. And skills-based workforce planning is essentially the first step once you go after the AI transformation, because it's the biggest people transformation arguably in business history.
[0:34:23] David Green: Again, for those that maybe didn't listen to our conversation last year, for those listeners who are working at organisations that are maybe early or about to embark on a skills journey, what would you say are the two or three things they should look to do first?
[0:34:42] Mikaël Wornoo: The way we think about a skills journey is, it starts by understanding the skills your people have, and it starts by understanding the skills that you require of people to be successful in their role. Those are two data points that should be either collected automatically or semi-automatically. It's very hard to collect that type of information at scale and keep it up to date. So, that's the first step. And linking that data to a concrete business problem so you can solve a problem with that data, it's key, so you can gain momentum, you can gain trust of the business that this is not just another HR project. And then when that is proven out, you scale. That's, I'd say, probably the core learning after 50-plus skills programmes. It starts with the data. You need a business problem. And only after you've proven that you can solve the business problem is when you're ready to scale. Otherwise, a project might go for two or three years in the good years under its budget. But ultimately, the CFO will come in and ask what the value is that you provide.
[0:35:45] David Green: Right, very good advice there. So, the next question is about TechWolf really. So, obviously you, together with Andreas and Jeroen, started TechWolf all those years ago when you were at university together, from memory, from previous conversations with the three of you. You're all actual AI experts as well, which is a little bit unique when we look at some of the HR tech companies out there. What's next for TechWolf?
[0:36:13] Mikaël Wornoo: So, I think what's next is making sure that we can help all HR leaders navigate this big transformation. I think I recently read a LinkedIn post or Twitter post that said, "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has finally come". And I think that that is what's happening right now. We've been talking about the future of work for so long. I think it's finally here. And so, making sure that we equip HR leaders to navigate that transformation is the big opportunity TechWolf is going after. We just released the Workforce Intelligence Index, so you can visit that. We'll put the link in the show notes, I think, and we'll keep talking about it a lot. And then three, you can follow me on LinkedIn, you can follow my co-founders on LinkedIn, it's just first and last name. And then please follow TechWolf on LinkedIn.
[0:36:56] David Green: Perfect. And I definitely recommend people follow Mik. It's Mikaël Wornoo.
[0:37:06] Mikaël Wornoo: That's perfect. There you go.
[0:37:08] David Green: There we are. Because increasingly, you've been sharing some really thought-provoking posts about some of the stuff that you're coming across at conferences, at clients, and you're obviously a voracious reader as well. So, definitely recommend people follow Mikaël. It's been an absolute pleasure, as always, to speak to you, Mik. You've let people know how they can stay in touch with you. We'll put the information about the Workforce Intelligence tool in the show notes. Anything else you'd like to share before we say au revoir?
[0:37:43] Mikaël Wornoo: No, it's been good to have this conversation. Every couple of months, every time we talk, so many things have changed. I'd say the last thing I'll say is that I genuinely believe all the things we've been talking about. It is really, really one of the biggest transformations in history. Probably a year ago, before I moved to the US, I was a little bit behind on how quickly the AI transformation is going, and I felt almost embarrassed. I was like, "Hey, I've been running an AI company for a very long time now, and I underestimated how big AI was going to be". So, if it can happen to me, I think it can happen to a lot of other people. It's going quickly, and it doesn't mean that you have to spend all your time getting into the weeds. But knowing that this is not just a bubble, knowing that this is not just a fad, but this is a genuine transformation, potentially with a financial level attached to it, is key. And so, don't get left behind, because the world is changing as we speak. And we'll be very happy to help you figure it out.
[0:38:39] David Green: Perfect. And I know anyone that's going to an HR technology or UNLEASH conference in the coming weeks, the TechWolf crew will be…
[0:38:48] Mikaël Wornoo: SAP, Success Connect, Gartner conference coming up soon, UNLEASH, we'll be at all the conferences.
[0:38:54] David Green: It's that time of year.
[0:38:56] Mikaël Wornoo: It's that time of year, exactly.
[0:38:58] David Green: Well, I look forward to seeing you at at least one of those, Mik. Thanks very much again for sharing your time and expertise with listeners and I'll see you soon.
[0:39:09] Mikaël Wornoo: See you soon.
[0:39:11] David Green: A huge thank you to Mik for joining me today, and to TechWolf for sponsoring this series of the Digital HR Leaders podcast. And of course, thank you to you, our listeners, for tuning in each week. If today's discussion sparked ideas or challenged your thinking, we'd be grateful if you'd subscribe, rate the show, and share it with a colleague. It really helps us continue bringing thoughtful, practical conversations to forward-thinking HR and people analytics professionals. To stay connected with us at Insight222, follow us on LinkedIn, visit insight222.com and sign up for our bi-weekly newsletter at myHRfuture.com for the latest research, tools and trends shaping the future of HR. That's all for now, thank you for tuning in and we'll be back next week with another episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast. Until then, take care and stay well.