Episode 4: Will Blockchain Disrupt the Future of HR Technology? (Interview with Yvette Cameron, Founder and Principal Analyst at NextGen Insights)


We're fond of hyping new technologies in HR, but I sense that the buzz around blockchain is actually being underplayed. Recent research by Accenture, which was published at the World Economic Forum in Davos found that if companies can unlock the value of workforce data whilst maintaining high levels of employee trust, the 600 biggest publicly listed companies in the world alone could unlock a combined value of 3 trillion dollars. One of the challenges to unlocking this value is the whole subject of data privacy and ownership. This is where Blockchain potentially comes in as it could fundamentally shift the status quo on employee data being owned by companies to a future where the data is very much owned by the individual worker and shared with its organisation. That’s the topic of this week’s podcast. You can listen below or by visiting the podcast website here.

Our guest today is Yvette Cameron, Founder and Principal Analyst at Next-Gen Insights who is a true expert in the HR technology space having previously been Global Head of Strategy at SAP SuccessFactors and Research Director of Human Capital Management technology at Gartner. Yvette is working closely with a number of HR technology companies to think about how blockchain could be used to revolutionise the situation around data ownership. Will we see a new vendor enter the market and create this capability or will the HR tech companies themselves collaborate create something together?

It's certainly a fascinating topic.  In our podcast Yvette and I discuss:

  • Firstly what Blockchain is and the impact it will potentially have on HR, HR technology and who owns employee data?

  • The consequent need for HR to evolve and embrace a digital mindset

  • Some of the research that Yvette has done around the role of design thinking in creating the employee experience

  • Some of the challenges that organisations are facing around the topic of employee experienc

  • And as always we'll talk about how the role of HR will have evolved by 2025.

This episode is a must listen for HR leaders and professionals intrigued by blockchain and the opportunity it provides for HR as well as those involved in digital transformations and employee experience initiatives.

Support for this podcast is brought to you by Culture Amp - find out more at cultureamp.com


David Green: Welcome to the Digital HR Leaders show Yvette, it's great to have you.

Yvette Cameron: Thank you very much.

David Green: Would you like to give our listeners a quick introduction to you and your background and the focus of your work at Next-Gen Insights?

Yvette Cameron: Sure, so I founded Next-Gen Insights about a year ago. I founded it on top of being in the industry for over 30 years.

And the focus is really advising smaller startup vendors who are looking to enter this space with innovative new technologies, larger technology vendors who are looking to embrace new fast-growing disruptive technologies and helping customers make sense of it. So I'm advising buyers and tech vendors at the same time and again, my focus is really on disruptive technologies.

I've spent the last three to four years really looking at the future of work, the trends, technologies like blockchain and artificial intelligence and where are they taking us for the future.

David Green: Which leads us nicely onto, we spoke a couple of weeks ago, and you're doing some work around an initiative you call the internet of careers, which I think our listeners will be really intrigued to find a little bit more about, can you provide some insights?

Yvette Cameron: So, the internet of careers, it was really the genesis of thinking through what's happening today. A couple of years ago, I started realising along with several others. That we've got over three billion people connected on the internet. We've got self-driving cars. We have our appliances in our houses that can communicate to each other and yet when we're looking to source talent for organisations, or as a candidate we're looking to be matched intelligently. The reality is we're still relying on, CVs and resumes and self-reported information that doesn't necessarily have the full picture of who I am as a candidate or what the opportunities are out in the market. So the internet of careers is really the creation of a frictionless trusted fair exchange of data on the Internet. It's a blockchain-based approach. It is focused on really addressing some of the key trends and challenges that are driving us to look at technologies like blockchain.

Let me give you a couple of examples. One trend I've been looking at is the fact that in the HCM space we're spending billions of dollars literally on artificial intelligence, taking advantage of machine learning, new algorithms, that are intended to bring much smarter processing to data and in the area of recruiting and talent acquisition it's all about getting the better matches of individuals, who they are and the jobs and opportunities we have. But if you think about it the data that those algorithms are based on David, are very siloed, I mean the data that my employer has on me and their HCM system is one view of me, but the reality is more and more people have portfolio careers. They work at an employer. I'm doing my side gig and that data might be captured on a gig platform. I might be doing other pieces, learning that's not captured by me, by any system. And so the amount of data that these algorithms are using to do matching is small and getting smaller because again, I'm taking more jobs outside.

I might ask my employer to forget who I am right part of GDPR and so the promise of great matching of candidates to job opportunities is getting diminished by the fact that the data isn't there and why isn't it there? Because employers and HCM systems own the data today, right? We're not thinking about how do we put more data into the hands of individuals so that they can share their whole portfolio to make better matching decisions. That's one of the trends but the bottom line here is that we have a vision that if we are able to help employers help HCM technology vendors realise that they no longer own the data, that the data is mine. The data is yours. It's an individual based approach, if we can help them understand that, publish information in a free and frictionless way into a technology that is trusted, that can't be changed, that allows for validation of who I am and what I'm doing if we can allow for that information to be populated.

Suddenly, we have a comprehensive fabric of data upon which we can do analytics, do job matching, surface ourselves etc. So that's essentially the internet of careers - looking to create a frictionless trusted framework for exchanging data and driving better career matching.

David Green: And essentially everyone wins then. One of the challenges that I see when I talk to organisations about people analytics is they say their HR human capital data isn't good enough, they say it's missing, there's no incentive for workers to actually provide data.

It's lost in all different silos and systems. So what you're explaining really is actually an opportunity for organisations as well. But certainly for the worker, for the workforce, who let's be honest it's their data. That they can take it with them as they move around their career. Whether that's a portfolio career or a more traditional career between organisations.

Yvette Cameron: Exactly. Yeah, we're finding that, the trust is not very high in organisations. More and more employees are saying, we want to take our data with us. In fact, there was a recent survey that came out of the Davos meeting that showed that 73 percent of employees were saying, yes, we want to be able to take this information with us and actually employees and individuals are willing to share data.

They're willing to contribute data to their employers. If there's a real benefit. But if the benefit is mismatched because it's not complete you're recommending jobs for me without any knowledge of these skills and capabilities I have over here. So I'm only getting a subset of the jobs. I'm not necessarily getting the value.

So in the blockchain environment, you've got the ability to store all of your information, completely trusted, because it's owned by you the individual and suddenly the data that can be leveraged on top of that is of course more comprehensive and so better matching. So, you know again what I'm talking  about here in the use of blockchain in Talent acquisition. It's not new. There's a large number of players out there who are exploring new initiatives. As I said, I do a lot of work with startups and there's probably 15 or so different programs that are working toward this, but I think the problem with the initiatives I've seen on the market today and this is why I'm talking about the internet of careers because if you think about it, nobody owns the internet, and in the internet of careers, nobody should own that data, except the individuals.

And so the problem I see with some of the initiatives on the market today is that they are for-profit vendor based approaches to gathering data in a blockchain, making different matches, having the the identity the self-sovereign identity so that again and it sounds great. But at the end of the day, these are for-profit vendor focused initiatives and we've seen what happens in that case, right?

We've seen the rise of social media solutions that take 90% of the value out of the newspaper industry. We've seen the rise of social sites that capture our professional information, but it's self-reported and not validated and so the efficacy of that data is questioned. So the approach that I'm working on with this internet of careers is an industry consortium based approach. No single vendor I believe can rise to the surface and deliver truly a blockchain based, a trusted immutable approach to all of your career data that benefits both employers and employees. Somebody's going to rise and take all of that two-sided  system in the employer and the employee side.

I'm expecting, not the industry leaders, across gig platforms, HR technology platforms, anybody dealing with labour data, background checks, assessments Etc. We need to come together. We need to create the standards, the approaches, the protocols for how data is written to the blockchain and then on top of that innovation and creativity and all the value-add from Individual vendors can come.

But we have to have a new fabric for how we operate our labour markets.

David Green: Okay, you mentioned blockchain a few times. And I know this is something I know I struggle sometimes to get some of our colleagues in HR to understand people analytics and the difference between reporting. I imagine you're having similar challenges around blockchain.

Bringing it back to lay-people's terms. How would you describe what blockchain is to the uninitiated as we say?

Yvette Cameron: So essentially blockchain is just a  technology. It's not some magic bullet. It's just a technology that essentially uses the concept of a distributed ledger.

So information isn't stored in one centralised siloed database that is subject to being hacked and the data violations. Copies of information which are stored in blocks and hence, connected as a blockchain are stored across multiple ledgers, multiple distributed sites. And so what that means is, information that is is written and agreed upon, is replicated across multiple sites. If you go in and you want to change it, say you want to hack this system and and change your employment date or take ownership of some data. The other systems have to agree to that. And that's the consensus network approach. So, again, it's just another way of storing and managing data, but it uses hashes and different ways of storing the technologies so that it's very secure. You can add additional records, but you can't change it. Now right here, I'm going to stop and say. This is where people say. Oh, it's never going to work because GDPR right and in Europe we're required to allow the information to be erased and a blockchain is unerasable. It's unchangeable. How do you meet that? The fact is blockchain is not inconsistent with European rules around data privacy. The data privacy rules aren't just about deleting information. It's about conveying ownership of the data to individuals. And that's what blockchain does and you can essentially remove access to data by destroying keys in the blockchain.

So I as the individual can say: employer, I want you to erase my information in your system. But I still want to keep it in the blockchain. And if for some reason I do want to delete that information forever, I own the key that lets me turn off access and it's unrecoverable. So there's some risk there of course, but it's not inconsistent with GDPR.

So it's just another way of storing data, but in a much more secure and reliable way.

David Green: So if anything it's actually the opposite of that it's actually beneficial to GDPR which puts obviously more rights for the actual owner of the data i.e. The individual.

Yvette Cameron: I think you're absolutely right. I mean employees today are reaching out to employers not in mass, but it's going to increase over the next few years and they're saying: Hey, I want a copy of my data.

And you know, they're getting what the employer gives them. But I can guarantee you with all the integrations we have going across our HCM systems. There are other copies of that data in other systems. If i've got my HCM system, It's been replicated to background checks. It's been replicated to analytics and engagement and all kinds of other tools.

So frankly publishing this to the blockchain is even more secure and helps ensure the privacy of that data.

David Green: So we both spoke recently at the UNLEASH conference in London, and one of the conversations I heard was around actually local data legislation. So we've mentioned GDPR but also places like Russia, China and California. Different legislations coming in which is making it even more complex for the big HCMS to actually operate in that environment.

But from what you were saying, it sounds like blockchain actually supports that and actually helps enable that better.

Yvette Cameron: Yeah, I would say it absolutely does. We're going to see more and more legislation coming up around ownership of data. Use of the data where it resides etc and blockchain, you know does ultimately give control to the individual and that's the essence of where these data laws are coming from. Giving individuals control and access, how the information is used.

So I think blockchain is well positioned and legislation will continue to come, blockchain will continue to refine the capabilities and whatnot. But I think it's the best positioned technology out there for what's coming.

David Green: And it's interesting, you referred to the research at Davos, which I think was the Accenture decoded organisational DNA research.

There's some really interesting stuff in there. Obviously, the impact of some of the scandals that have been on the consumer data side are starting to have an impact on the employee or workplace side as well. I saw that something like about two-thirds of employees were worried that their data might be misused. You mentioned that they're actually quite happy for organisations that use their data if they get benefits. And I think there was one stat in there, something like 30% of  organisational Business Leaders felt that they were using the data well with trust imposed. So with blockchain actually that really helps accelerate that trust thing which means that all employees or workers should be more willing to give access to their organisations and organisations can unlock some of that value that that Accenture report talks about.

Yvette Cameron: Exactly, speaking on the trust, there was a report out by Edelman trust barometer who I think they reported that somewhere around 40% of social media users had deleted at least one of their social accounts.

So, this lack of trust is certainly on the consumer side. We're seeing it on the employer side. It's a challenge that needs to be addressed. And so you look at blockchain and in our initiative, as I said earlier around the internet of careers, the idea of being able to access information that then is is already validated.

Think about the way that speeds things up, the friction it removes and ultimately the trust that it engenders. When I'm sharing my portfolio my briefcase of information with you, you know the information is valid and can be trusted. That's huge.

David Green: So a lot of this is premised, of course, on HR becoming a little bit more digitally savvy, going through a digital transformation, being a bit more comfortable using data.

Where do you think HR is on that journey at the moment?

Yvette Cameron: It is a spectrum. We talk about spectrums a lot nowadays and it's definitely the digital transformation spectrum or awareness or maturity level. It's interesting. I talk to so many different companies and in a single day I'll talk to a company who's embracing new technologies around employee experience and they're integrating it to their other 15 or 20 different systems and they're thinking about how do we have new measures of impact of these Investments and that's great. And then the same day. I'll talk to a company who says, you know, we're just about ready to launch employee self service, we're thinking we might put some manager self service out there. Of course, I have to laugh because I introduced that back in the late 90s. For a company I was working at and and the fact is it's all good, right?

We need to keep making those steps. Overall the industry is maturing. The biggest caution I would give though is that digital maturity and moving along digital transformation. It's not just about technology and it's probably the number one fallacy I see out there is if we embrace this technology we'll become  digital and people are thinking about digitising processes that they're not thinking about recreating and rethinking and asking do we even need this process in light of the new capabilities that technology enables? So I think again my mantra when I'm talking to folks is not just about what new technology can you invest in and there are some fabulous ones, but they have to match with your mindset, your culture, in your organisation. What do you want the experiences to be? What are the goals and accomplishments that we're trying to make sure that we meet? What are the strategies of the organisation and are these new processes, new changes, new technologies going to get us there? But on a scale of 1 to 10 as an industry if I had to put a number on it and say we're about a number six.

David Green: Yeah, well, that's that's quite generous of you. I mean certainly one of the big topics you mention is employee experience. And certainly when I'm talking to people analytics leaders now and CHROs it's certainly a big focus area. You've written some stuff about how you feel that initiatives in that area are failing actually, why do you think that is and and maybe also who's doing it well, if you can think of any organisation?

Yvette Cameron: So I do tend to like to be a little controversial in saying that employee experience initiatives are failing and here's why. But the truth is a lot of them are and it's not unlike the experiences we had David when people 15 years ago were first investing in talent management, we expected all these tremendous results from these investments in talent management and 10 years later people are saying where's the result? And to some extent we're starting to see that in employee experience. Employee experience and platforms is the hot word right now, but we have been delivering experiences through technology for many years now. So it's already at a stage where we can look back and say yes those were working or not. What's not working? What I'm finding is people are embracing technology in silos. It's the drop in and then walk away and see what sticks type of approach and without context, without that technology being in the flow of work that I do as an individual or having executive support behind it. It becomes a fun toy for a while, but not necessarily something that I embrace as part of my work. And so the experience is short-lived. Another challenge I think is overburdened right?

I mean we are throwing so many different technologies, our HCM vendors have great investments that are coming in and there are niche solutions that sometimes organisations bring in, there's communication tools from different non HR technologies that I use in my work. And so this overburdening of me with too many applications can cause some dissonance and actually add to frustration. Again the same challenge we saw when we first introduced self-service 20 years ago and the GUI glut that we talked about.

So I feel like we're repeating some of our cycles, embracing new technologies, throwing them out there, stepping back and saying, oh we're not quite having experiences we need and there are some things that we need to do to fix that and I think one of them is first off asking employees, what do you need?

David Green: Well, yeah and funny enough, I saw Mark Levy speaking recently. Obviously as you know, he setup employee experience, well actually renamed HR  and called it employee experience when he wast Airbnb and he described employee experience as doing things with and for employees rather than to them and I know you've just published some research around that and you talked about the use of design thinking in employee experience.

Yvette Cameron: I think that's fundamentally at where we're investing in these technologies, we have our think tanks in HR where we're innovating new processes, but so often employees are not involved in the process and that's at the core of design thinking. You need to empathise with the individuals that you're trying to serve, get them engaged early on, answer the questions or try to identify what are the real challenges we're trying to solve? What is it like to experience work in our organisation? And where do we need to make changes? And from that standpoint you brainstorm, you ideate, you come up with ideas. You test them out, you iterate, but employees have to be involved.

It's interesting. So a colleague of mine and I we set out to do a little survey. We had a hypothesis that the greater you involve employees in designing the experiences, the greater engagement you will have of your workforce. And so we did a survey got some nice responses from across the globe from all different sized organisations.

And yes, we found that where employers were indicating that they had high levels of employee engagement. They also indicated that they had a high degree of involvement of employees in designing those experiences. Now there were a few cases where a high level of engagement didn't correlate with a high level of involvement.

So there were a few outliers there. But you know what was clear is in a hundred percent of the cases in both the US based companies and European-based companies where there was a low level of employee engagement, there was always a low-level employee inclusion in those design experiences. So the bottom line here is you want to improve the engagement in your organisation, involve  people.

It's one of those, duh, ah ha moments. It's obvious but the numbers back it up and we were also able in the research to look at things like, where are you involving them? It was really interesting to me. It was concerning and interesting at the same time that less than half of the organisation's we surveyed were actually soliciting feedback, which is kind of the first step in employee design, less than half of the employers were soliciting feedback on their direct manager, the quality, the relationship etc and there's been so many studies, you've seen them, on the impact of the manager/employee relation to engagement. Yet less than half of companies did. Another final finding and then I'll stop is that those who are reporting high and very high levels of engagement seem to have much higher levels of incidents where they were inviting employees to provide feedback on the company mission and the company strategy and the culture. So I don't think HR commonly thinks to itself, hmm. Let's ask employees what they think of our business strategy? But apparently you should because those with better employee engagement scores were consistently two to three times higher in their frequency and asking for feedback in those areas. In this era of shared data the group, leveraging  crowdsourced thinking and and the ideation that's possible across networks, why we think about strategy and mission and purpose in a silo is beyond me.

That's not where we should be today and the numbers were showing it out for my research.

David Green: You're right. It is a little bit obvious isn't it, if you ask employees how they feel they can have great ideas around the strategy. They can tell you stuff that can make the experience better and help improve business performance.

One thing that I'm starting to see more. HR organisations get familiar with is actually understanding those employees that are directly facing the customer such as in retail or sales and asking them for ideas. If you see any examples of that in your research.

Yvette Cameron: We did, we asked specifically about where were employees getting involved in the design experience and one of the top areas, one of the top three areas was indeed in customer satisfaction, customer support and we also were able to validate that higher levels of customer satisfaction did tie in with higher levels of employee engagement in an involvement in those design experiences. So again, it feels right. The numbers are showing it out and I was really pleased to see that for the most part. It was in the top three areas where people are soliciting involvement and that's exactly what we need to see.

David Green: And of course if you solicit feedback the key thing is you need to analyse it and obviously we've got now that we can  start analysing text rather than just survey based stuff and also you have to act on it.

Yvette Cameron: Yes. I'm so glad you said that because one of the most shocking aspects of the survey for me was that less than half of organisations who collect feedback, which is great that we're collecting it, actually do anything with it and what a fantastic path to employee disengagement. Ask me how I feel and then do nothing about it. So an easy fix for any organisation, if you're going to ask for feedback, take action.

Our research is coming out here in the next few weeks, but we found that companies who involved employees and getting their feedback and involving them in the design, that had higher levels of engagement,  were getting feedback in more than three or four areas. So they had more areas where they were collecting information and fortunately those who had lower levels of engagement were generally collecting it in fewer areas.

That's good. Because if you're going to collect it and not act on it don't collect it in a lot of different areas. So that's the number one thing any company can do is if you're going to measure anything, focus and make sure you take action. That it has to be a transparent process, communicate why you're asking and then communicate the follow-up you're planning to take and then take the action and communicate what you did. It's all about communication and transparency.

David Green: And of course the technology is there to support us to do that now. As you said we need the right mindset, the right process, the right people, you know organised and delivering that.

Yvette Cameron: There are some fantastic technologies out there that are not just enabling surveys, whether its annual pulse or other different ways of communication.

They're providing dashboards for different leaders across the organisation, even some provide dashboards for employees, so that they can see what are the conversations in the organisation and again, some of the tools are offering solutions to provide action to recommend and actually track the action that's being taken.

So this digitalisation of the feedback process is exciting to see where we're heading. It's just that more and more organisations have to not only embrace the technology that enables it, but the mindset that goes along with, oh, we need to communicate. We need to follow up. It's a two-sided solution for sure.

David Green: And I've seen that from some vendors. They've got, at the manager level, it tells you what you're doing well and it tells you things that you might want to look at and then it actually helps you with some actions that you might want to take. On an individual level and on a collective level. Which how helpful would that be as a manager?

Yvette Cameron: It's fantastic, the algorithms that drive that are fantastic and let's hope that the database that they're sitting on are comprehensive enough with knowledge of people to make really effective recommendations. For the most part they are but there's always more information that you can bring into those algorithms.

David Green: And it sort of lends itself to the whole personalisation and more personal analytics. We've seen it in the consumer field and I think we're starting to see it a little bit more in the workforce now as well.

Yvette Cameron: Yeah, I mentioned to somebody else about the use of self-service and manager self-service etc. This idea that analytics, of why we relagate it to the administrative level, has been a challenge for me for years. I'm so glad to see new technology solutions that give me as an individual metrics and quite honestly, it's a requirement more and more as far as the employee experience. We're starting to look at wellness and well-being. What is the overall state of the individual? Whether it's physical, mental, emotional, financial etc. Nothing but personal analytics are going to be meaningful to me when you're talking about well-being. So I'm really thrilled to see increased number of applications that are bringing personalised insights, recommendations to me and yet also helping me understand where I might fit in the larger ecosystem whether it's my employer, people of my age, demographic etc. It's exciting times.

David Green: Back to the blockchain. One of the concerns I think from the workforce or employee perspective is if I'm getting personal recommendations around, you know, maybe you want to take a break. Maybe you've been working too hard and maybe you've been in too many meetings, the fear is of course that your employer will see that as well.

Whereas I guess the great thing with the blockchain being it's your data. They won't necessarily see that.

Yvette Cameron: Yeah, that's a really good example. I think there's always a concern of Big Brother looking over your shoulder. In the future when all data is about me is on this blockchain, and I control it, I would suspect that I can subscribe to certain applications that give me that. I want an application that's going to tell me about my weight gain and loss. I absolutely don't want that shared with my employer but I actually wouldn't mind a solution that said hey, you've been sitting for 10 minutes time, it's time for a break. If my employer is doing that, it gives me a sense that they actually care about my health and well-being and my effectiveness while I'm working. So I think it's going to be an interesting mix of employer versus personalised applications, how they mix during the work environment, and what is the work environment? It's 24/7 for some, so it's going to be an interesting time but the answer is going to be, the more access to information and data that you have, the better analytics and applications that can be developed.

David Green: So back to that whole trust thing.

Yvette Cameron: Exactly.

David Green: Okay. Well, we ask this question to all our guests on the Digital HR Leaders show. You can take this wherever you want to take it. So, where do you think HR will be in 2025? Given some of the things that you've been talking about.

Yvette Cameron: So 2025 sounds a long ways away. and it's not. So if it was 2035...

David Green: Let's do 2035.

Yvette Cameron: Okay. well, I'll answer both. 2035 we might see that HR organisations have become irrelevant. I'm thinking smart contracts on blockchain solutions, incredibly intelligent and personalised analytics. Much of that compliance and process and matching and really tailoring the experiences I think are going to become much more automated. And where I see HR organisations moving toward is more of the business and strategy support. Maybe team building and just really ensuring they're more embedded in the business really in 2035. There may not be HR organisations as they exist today.

Six or seven years from now in 2025, definitely a move towards more of the, as we've been doing for the last five years, a move more toward analytics, insights, helping interpret and bring insights into the business to help managers and individuals make more information. One of the key things I'd like to see happen by 2025, but I don't have great confidence, is every HR organisation needs an innovation center. It should  be design-led, design thinking led, innovating not just HR processes, but the way people work, the way we team, the way we partner, the way we work even with colleagues outside of our Enterprise to bring new ideas and insights in. So if I had a wish for 2025 it would be that every organisation has a really exciting, well-funded, well-staffed Center for Innovation for the organisation.

David Green: So HR really to stop being a vertical silo with even more vertical silos within it and actually start to go across the organisation and think the organisation rather than HR. And I think a lot of HR people I speak to are scared about how their jobs will change and I see it personally as an opportunity that some of the more repetitive administrative tasks will be automated which means HR can focus on stuff that adds real value to the organisation.

Yvette Cameron: Exactly. Innovation aligned with strategy and consuming the insights that are available now in all of our systems in ways that drive better decisions to execute on those strategies.

It's funny when we talk about HR being a horizontal business, but in fact, it's very siloed, it is very vertical and becoming more horizontal across the business and adding value isn't going to be hugely helpful.

David Green: And I think that some of that is changing because analytics and employee experience I see as being very horizontal. And maybe that's why HR has been struggling with them.

Well, we could probably carry on talking for hours Yvette. But we do need to finish. So thank you for being a guest on the show. How can people follow you on social media and how can they access some of the research that you've been publishing?

Yvette Cameron: Sure, so on social media, on Twitter and Linkedin, I'm simply @YvetteCameron and you can follow the work that we're doing on this new internet of careers, the role of blockchain and owning your data at velocitycareerlabs.io, so we've got white papers and other information available there and also my email is y@nextgeninsights.net reach out to me, ask questions, I love to engage.

David Green: Yvette, thank you for being a guest. Safe trip back to Denver.

Yvette Cameron: Absolutely. Thank you very much.

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