Welcome to episode three of series 11 of The Digital HR Leaders podcast. My guest on this week’s episode is Wagner Denuzzo, who has a wonderful job title of Head of Capabilities for Future of Work, where he is leading the effort to design the organisation of the future at Prudential Financial. Wagner’s team is responsible for organisational design and capabilities and he is overseeing the development of an extraordinary end to end employee experience, as well as the transformation of learning, careers and skills development for the future and the creation of a talent marketplace.

You can listen to this week’s episode below or by visiting the podcast website here.

In our conversation, Wagner and I discuss:

• The role of HR in the wider transformation at Prudential Financial

• How Prudential Financial is using data to understand skills and career opportunities

• Why employees and the organisation have a shared responsibility for careers and up-skilling

• How to build a culture of mobility, encompassing leaders, managers and employees

• The business outcomes that internal mobility can drive

This episode is a must listen for anyone interested or involved in skills, learning and workforce planning. So that is business leaders, CHROs and anyone in a people analytics, HR business partner or learning role.

Support for this podcast is brought to you by orgvue . To learn more, visit https://www.orgvue.com/.

Interview Transcript

David Green: Today, I am delighted to welcome Wagner Denuzzo, Head of Capabilities for Future of Work at Prudential Financial, to The Digital HR Leaders podcast. Welcome to the show, Wagner, it is great to have you on. Can you provide listeners with a brief introduction to your background and also your wonderfully titled role at Prudential Financial? It is one of the best job titles I have heard.

Wagner Denuzzo: Sure and thank you so much, David, for inviting me to the podcast. I am excited to be here because there is so much to be talked about in future of work. Yes, my title is The Head of Capabilities for Future of Work, I think it is a title that not many people have, I am very excited to have the privilege to have that title and the team.

But my whole career has been very fluid. I studied employee assistance programs, I was a counsellor in employee assistance programs. From there all the way up till now, after 25 years in the industry, I had the opportunity to work in talent strategy at IBM. I had the opportunity to do a lot of executive coaching, my own practice, doing talent development and really understanding what creates high performance in workplaces.

And I spent the last 20 years really focusing on leadership development. I think if you asked me what is my expertise, it is in leadership development. So at Prudential it is about transforming Prudential in all areas of our business. So now I have a team of workforce analytics, career services, learning and development and org design and all the enhanced services that we developed for the transformation.

So it is very robust, but it is very exciting.

David Green: So you talked about Prudential Financial is transforming, that is great. Obviously that role has got a lot of different parts of that as part of your role. What is the role of HR in the wider organisational transformation at Prudential?

Wagner Denuzzo: That is interesting because it is evolving rapidly. The transformation started a few years ago and we did a cultural jam, so people could understand our cultural aspirations. In fact, we are deliberately trying to be the most adaptable HR team in the world, because we are really starting that transformation in financial services and insurance. Then we have really focused on our culture, our employee experience and then Covid hit. It was really incredibly important for us to pivot very quickly into the digital world and actually it worked really well. But the HR team is front and centre in our transformation because we know it is about skills, about capabilities. It is about bringing the best talent. It is about having the composition, I call the workforce composition, that really accelerates the value creation for our customers. At the end of the day, it is all about customers and HR is human centric, employee centric and customer centric.

David Green: I mean, thinking about that customer at the end, is a good way to go about a transformation.

Let's be honest, how many times have we talked about transforming HR and not thought about our customers, either in the business or outside the business? It is interesting actually what you were saying, we have just conducted some research around operating models for people analytics or workforce analytics, and we are seeing a clear investment and growth in roles such as people analytics consultants, i.e, going out to the business, understanding business needs and then bringing those back to HR and people analytics teams to work. Can you tell us a bit about your HR consulting model? I believe from our previous conversations, you have got six points of engagement, so that you can tailor to the specific part of the business that you are dealing with.

Can you tell us a little bit about how that works? I think listeners will be particularly engaged by that.

Wagner Denuzzo: Yeah, thanks so much, David. It is very interesting because it is connected to adaptability and agility in HR. So we formed what we call Talent Catalysts. It is a group of very senior and professional HR folks from different areas of HR and we created what we call six points of engagement because we noticed that during a transformation, there are so many areas that we need to focus on. But the reality is we need to start where the client is. Business units are at different stages in their maturity in the transformation, so we need to start where they need most help in the flexible arrangement because your operating model, we prefer to call it an operating system, the system is a little more flexible and more dynamic.

If you think about different areas moving, they impact each other. So to make a long story short, the six points of engagement are capabilities that we bring to bear during the transformation. Transformative change, talent strategy for an agile organisation, skills assessments, learning journeys for the up-skilling and re-skilling efforts that we are doing. Reinventing jobs, working very closely with compensation for reinventing jobs and the workforce analytics that comes in is to help us in a new way to organise the design of the organisation. So the organisational design takes on a different quality for us because it is based on capabilities and workforce analytics cut across all this because we need, as I always say, systems of record, systems of insights and systems of engagement.

So we have all three within the six points of engagement.

David Green: I love the idea of talent catalysts, that is another great name, you guys are definitely getting some good names of job titles and roles here. You shared, when we spoke a couple of weeks ago, one of your mottos for the HR consultants or talent catalysts as you call them. “Be engaged, don't be attached.” I think that is great. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that means in practice?

Wagner Denuzzo: Actually, it is a very tangible way of saying, hey, we are going to be there as much as we need to be and for as long as we need to be, but then we move on to the next. So we have right now, hundreds of initiatives under this transformation and it is imperative that we have capacity management for that. It is kind of a consulting model. So we deploy one or two, sometimes three because the business can be talking about more than one six points of engagement, and we need to rapidly move that team on to another area, move to another business, because what we are doing is infusing with expertise in enablement and letting the teams really execute with supportive workforce analytics and our teams.

So it is important that we have this catalyst as catalysts of change, but they have to not be fully attached because the moment you get emotionally attached to something, you lose sight of the diversity of thoughts and the divergent thinking that can lead to the next innovation. So it is very important for us not to be emotionally attached, but fully engaged is good because we create high-performing teams.

David Green: You mentioned you have got hundreds of requests across the business. How do you prioritise which ones to devote resources to? I presume capacity can be a challenge at times, so it would be interesting to hear how you prioritise?

Wagner Denuzzo: That is interesting. We do have a centralised transformation office and we are represented there, technology is represented there and process improvements are represented there. So we have this triad and it comes to fruition through the senior leaders who meet weekly, which is a very agile way of doing things because decisions are made within hours. Once they are made, we know the prioritisation according to the highest value, the greatest opportunity for the capability building and the feasibility of doing things fast.

So the prioritisation becomes very clear after the sessions every week and we deploy accordingly. Of course, there is always initiatives that don't have our direct support, so what we do is enable the HR partners to do the work. There is a lot of enablement that we do currently with coaching circles, is a great way of magnifying and multiplying the effort, also office hours and we are always ready to assist. So, enablement is a key feature as well.

David Green: And I imagine the fact that you meet regularly to prioritise was so important during the pandemic, which let's be honest we are still in, things are happening so quickly so that need to prioritise and re-prioritise is so important.

Wagner Denuzzo: So important. It makes me feel very proud because our employee engagement survey this year went up, when we all thought after transformation, so much change, so much uncertainty, would lead to a lower engagement and actually it went up because the way we responded to the epidemic was incredibly supportive. So our CEO was, on a weekly basis, supporting our employees. So it makes a difference. It is all about the relationship we have with our employees and this year we were proud to see our engagement go up.

David Green: Well, that is good. That leads nicely onto the next question. You talked about this is a huge transformation of the organisation, skills is at the heart of that of course, understanding the skills that you have got and the skills that you need. I would be really interested to understand, how do you use data to understand skills and career opportunities, both from an employee perspective, but also from an organisational perspective as well?

Wagner Denuzzo: Sure and I think it is going to continuously grow exponentially, if you ask me. It becomes foundational now, nobody can start from not knowing and data brings the knowledge. But you do need a system of record that is accurate. So having a data lake, we have a data lake and we use all the tools available to bring that data into a centralised space, where we can derive a lot of insights. I think that is really important because most of us have different systems coming together and it is important to have a trusted source of truth.

But when you think about transformation, it is about capability building and we are focused on value drivers and capability building. What that means is actually after you identify the capability, a great example is customer service, we want them to become financial wellness advocates. It is beyond us responding to the client's needs and going into relationship building, so we can start offering a financial wellness and more comprehensive services. We are all moving from products to service. So the data is about the customer. A lot of data about our employees skills go into this and it is important for us to create the architecture. One is the reporting, now we have a platform, I think I mentioned Skills Accelerator, when we talked before. It is our talent marketplace, everybody is in a talent marketplace nowadays, but it is infused with the AI and machine learning. So our employees who don't have resumes ready because they have long tenure, we tend to have long tenure employees, they are extremely happy to see that we have inference of skills from their LinkedIn profile or from whatever we put in the machine, that leads to very good dashboards. We are using a lot of Tableau, data personalisation is key for us because the spreadsheets are out and Tableau and Power BI are in.

So data visualisation is helping us really identify the skills we have, identify the capabilities that we could build with those skills. And skill clusters is the new frontier, it is building more than skills, it is building capabilities. So data services across all six points of engagement but most notably in skills assessment. The predictive capability, we are not there yet, but we need to start predicting what could be our next game.

David Green: But you are inferring skills rather than going out and asking people?

Wagner Denuzzo: We have 84% of our people are domestically in tool already, that was voluntary and this is really good news for us.

David Green: Without getting into the detail amount or giving the exact number, is the skills you are inferring accurate as well? So you are going out and testing it with employees, presumably, as well?

Wagner Denuzzo: Yes, there is a validation process and it is very cool because then you start telling people think about your capabilities that you are building, think about all the activities you have in your life it doesn't necessarily need to be tied to the role you play at Prudential. But if you are a coach in a team of your kids, if you are as somebody who took off to write a book, all these skills you gain from your life experiences, we want you to add in because the work-life, workplace and personal lives blending are really conducive to creating new capabilities, if you ask me. I think it is very positive, actually.

David Green: Let's think about it from the employee perspective now, because obviously that data is really helpful that it can help employees, in terms of understanding their potential pathways within Prudential.

You have talked about that desire for careers and up-skilling to be a shared responsibility between the employee and the organisation, as both can get benefit. How do you put this into practice?

Wagner Denuzzo: Now, that is interesting. On this platform, as I said, we have systems of records, data lakes, systems of insights, we have several tools. But now systems of engagement, if you don't have the engagement with the employee directly, where they can experience the digital platform, if your businesses are digital platforms, the employee experience has to be through a digital platform as well, especially in a distributed workforce now.

And it is interesting because we had career principle and that was a little more rigid, there were 10 items and then we have the talent philosophy, it becomes a little cumbersome. So with the idea of simplicity and simplification, we reduced the career principles to very simple ways of doing this and talking about it is, you own your own career, so own it. Learn and grow because that is the way you are going to grow your career as well and make an impact because that is the way you are going to advance your career. It is very simple because now people understand the shared responsibilities because we have the responsibility to orient them, what are the declining skills that they need to be careful of if they are in that category? And what are the emerging skills that they need to be authentic and start up-skilling themselves. We provide on the platform, the skill gaps, if you want to achieve a different career path, you have the opportunity to understand the skill gaps.

And on top of that we have career services, very few companies have career services. In fact, we have dedicated career partners who meet with people one-on-one, up to two times a year and we have skills based workshops to learning agility. They are really helping igniting new thinking and mindset for our leaders as well.

David Green: So you are bringing in that that skills data, helping employees understand what does that help them do now within your organisation, what could they do additionally if they acquire some additional skills. So there is learning, but there is also that career advice as well to actually help them really get where they need to get to. Also how desirable those skills are within the company as well and how more desirable they are likely to be in the future. What sort of feedback have you had from employees? Presumably you are asking them what they like about this?

Wagner Denuzzo: We continuously pulse people and this feedback loop never stops. The great thing is that people see that now they have tangible ways of assessing their skills and tangible ways of seeing what is happening in the industry. Before it was just messaging, just messaging without tools does not allow the employee to take responsibilities for their careers.

So a lot of this has been helping on the transformation as well, because we are very honest and transparent with our people. Sometimes we might have to make decisions, different decisions about the workforce models that we use. And with that people start becoming attentive to take responsibilities for themselves.

They are very favourable that when you look at the EQ, which is our employee survey, they mention skills accelerator and great tool a lot and when I see feedback like that we really achieved a lot from March when we start career services. We have already had over a thousand sessions already, so that is lot of conversations, and 4,000 of our employees are really open to opportunities to participate in workshops. So you'll have a great movement that is really groundbreaking, if you think about the employee for employees and we are trying to get the feedback. The feedback has been tremendous. The feedback that we have to work on of course, is they want to know what are the opportunities now? It is hard because we are reinventing jobs, we are reinventing organisations, so there will be new roles, new jobs and that is when we are going to see if we can be really successful in 2021 when we have identified the new jobs.

David Green: When you address mobility in organisations, you recommend opportunities to individuals anywhere from two levels up or one level down, sometimes it is a sideways movement, sometimes it is even a slight downwards move, if you want to call it that, because it helps further the career. How do you build a culture of mobility in Prudential Financial so that employees and managers see the opportunity in such moves and don't hoard talent?

Wagner Denuzzo: We have a way to go, of course, I am not going to say that this is done. But the great thing is this, we know we must do this and we know the benefits. So people are already trusting in our belief. There is a belief in our ratio equity work, there is a belief in our opportunities for employees first, in fact we put in place that there are no reqs open externally, without being open internally for two weeks first. You see, we are really putting in place policies that are advancing our strategy and people feel that this is being done with a positive intent. That is really critical. The employees are coming with us to do this and we are really seeing, year on year, 11 points increasing in internal jobs filled that didn't require agencies, that didn't require external posting. This is fantastic for us because our Vice Chairman and the CEO are really clear about this. We want to give our employees the opportunity to grow with us because "employees first".

It is fantastic. I love the culture, I love the intent and I think employees are really seeing the value of this.

David Green: As you said, you recommend opportunities, two levels up to one level down.

Wagner Denuzzo: That is what's important, people who at first said why are you recommending this in a different function? Because now people are becoming alerted to the fact that actually, cross functional movement is really good and healthy for your career. I think we are creating an idea that you build more capability by growing experiences. I have somebody on my team, this has been so gratifying, who came from retirement. She used to do operations and was in retirement, she saw the role of communications for skills accelerator, in the up-skilling re-skilling and she said, I might not have all these skills but I would like to be part of the HR. And actually we hired her because of skills adjacency, that's another terminology that we are going to be very normalising moving forward, which is if you have a high adjacency, it is easy for a manager to give you an opportunity because you have some up-skilling of do on the job.

If it is low adjacency, it's an opportunity for you to make a plan for your career. If you want to achieve the two levels higher or in a different function, you need to plan your career development experiences that will lead you there and we provide you that. So I think skills adjacencies and other terminology that people are getting used to understanding.

David Green: How do you measure skills adjacency?

Wagner Denuzzo:  Well, it's not that difficult but there is so much so I am going to just be simplifying it here.

We have a skills library, but we have an ontology, we are not following the taxonomy because it locks you into verticals of career and job families and all that in professions. We prefer ontology because those skills can be captured in any grid that is formed for professions, in categories of jobs.

But more than that, I think what is interesting is that people understand that they need to do it for themselves. So the, two levels up for example, instils some kind of excitement because they know they can achieve a level beyond where they are. But when we give them something very different, actually what's really triggering is curiosity. People are very curious about why I am giving them something outside and we have great examples of successful cross functional movement. Managers now are learning that if I let my people go, I get all their talent in. So the talent marketplace is coming to fruition very quickly.

David Green: I guess that cross-functional thing is so important because for so long people stay in their functions, siloed from each other and we have seen with the influx of people with skills in people analytics coming into organisations over the last few years, a lot of those analysts in particular are coming from working on the marketing side or in finance and kind of infusing some of that analytic knowledge into HR because as a function, HR is typically a little bit behind marketing in doing analytics. I think it is great for careers as well because, as per the example you gave, you have got someone who has been working in a part of the business for a long time and she is now bringing that skill and expertise into HR and probably providing a much different perspective than someone who may be working in HR all their lives.

So yeah, it is great that technology and data is kind of making this possible a little bit.

Obviously you shared one example there around the number of internal jobs that are being filled. Are there any other business outcomes or results from the internal mobility work that you can share with listeners?

Wagner Denuzzo: I think that what we are creating is that culture of internal mobility and I think that's very powerful. We can’t measure it yet. But I think with the pulse survey next year, we are going to be more clear about the impact, but we see already people talking that way “I have been in my role for two years, it is time to move on.” When people start sensing that actually we don't want you to be in our role for more than two years, of course our business leaders believe between two and three years is healthy and that should be the case, especially if you come into a role not having all the skills and experiences. So you have that two to three years to really master something. But the reality is people are gravitating towards this.

I have another case that is very interesting. The person who came from the customer service office she said, I already know the agile ways of working. I already know the customer data and experience. I could bring all of that to HR? I said, definitely and now she is in the talent catalysts. She is doing a fantastic job because she has a different mindset about, let's understand the customer needs before we do anything and the same with employees. I think more and more, you are going to see that and to be honest, if you are working in global companies or any companies that are large, we have this fantasy that we are going to bring outside-in thinking and suddenly things change. Culture changes, everything changes, it is not the case, you have to be very surgical. You bring the talent that you need in specific roles that are critical for triggering new ways of working and doing things, but you cannot overload the organisation with all outside-in because then you lose track of your culture. It is something that happens that actually makes those newcomers fail. I see a lot of this data and I am not going to mention data specific to Prudential, but overall, you can see that it is not so rosy a picture of bringing people from outside because it is very hard to be successful in organisations that have been here for hundreds of years. We are a 140 year old company. So we have to balance that and with somewhat success, helping our people engage in new career paths internally. So this is all positive.

David Green: Yeah, I have seen examples from several companies, obviously I won't name them, of where they have done some analysis to look at time to productivity, for example, of internal hires versus external hires. Cost of external hires versus internal hires, those sorts of things. I guess what we are all trying to do, we mentioned briefly about hoarding talent, what we want to do is make it easier for an internal person to get another role within Prudential Financial versus getting a role on the outside. We have all heard the stories of how long it sometimes takes, not in Prudential obviously, to get an internal move sometimes and it can be harder to move internally than it can to get a role outside. I guess underpinning what you are doing with analytics helps you identify if that was ever the case, you would be able to communicate that. One other example, you mentioned two to three years as being ideal time being in a role. I don't know if you have done this sort of analysis yet. I have seen examples from other organisations, where they found that the biggest driver of attrition is actually around tenure in role and people that have been in a role for say three years or more, have 40% more chance of leaving than someone who had been in that role for less than three years.

And if that actually is the case for internal mobility, if nothing else, you are potentially losing a lot of great talent out of the organisation because the perception is that you are not providing opportunities for people to move.

I guess that is a nice project for your workforce analytics team.

Wagner Denuzzo: The reality is now we are going to introduce the gig economy, the project space, the talent marketplace 3.0 is coming out now in January, 1st quarter, and now we are going to see the power of creating movement. Even when there is no actual movement, you might be 20% in your current role, 30% in a new project and 30% in a vision focus group. It will be cool to see how we can make this even more flexible then you don't need to actually move from a reporting structure, you just need different experiences and that is going to be a great win to achieve. Which leads to the new role of the manager, which is not about managing it is about coaching. Which is a different story.

David Green: Tell me more, tell me more about that.

Wagner Denuzzo: Well, the role of the manager, I came to IBM in 2013 to transform the manager experience, but in favour of the customer experience. In our whole transformation, I was there as the Head of Leadership Development during the critical years, from 13 to 17, and it was obvious to me that managers held the key for us to engage in employees and engage the organisation. Especially the middle manager, the famous middle management they always can be seen as the block. I don't believe in that. I do believe in engagement. We don't engage people fast enough, but when you engage them, they start seeing their roles as different and they are much more active. I think managers will become career coaches. I think the nomenclature has to change too, because if you are working on different projects, the project lead is a scrum master. People are going to be all over the organisation and they don't even need the title of manager to be a scrum master, they can lead great product development without that. So the role of the People Coach is to coach them through their careers and really create an environment where they can be their best. That’s what it is.

David Green: The role you talked about, the vision you talked about, that people don't need to move as such they might be working on a project, it is a great way to apply some of that knowledge you have learned. So if you have got skills, one, two and three. You have done some learning to acquire skills four and five, but then you were able to apply those on a project straight away, how better to develop.

Wagner Denuzzo: The idea of project assessments gives the career coach, the manager in this case, the opportunity to assess the overall performance, the overall feedback and gaps that they can help you with. So it is important to assess your performance within the projects that you are in.

We cannot lose sight of that.

David Green: I think there is a nice link there with strategic workforce planning. I know you have established a strategic workforce planning within your area. How is that going? What can you tell us about that?

Wagner Denuzzo: This is interesting. Well, I have be honest, we are piloting this with our technology. But the cool thing is this, we all have been through workforce planning. I used to do strategy planning for IBM for a long time, but the reality is it is finance based, the SGNA and the FTEs and all that and it is a mathematics exercise. This is not. We decided to create this strategic workforce planning that counts for the demographics of your organisation, because you don't plan your workforce just by numbers, you plan your workforce based on skills, based on demographics to increase the diversity of thought and inclusion and the affordability. Of course affordability is important, but also the constant reinventing of jobs and the levels of jobs as well.

So it is very intricate because now we have strategic workforce planning that helps you assess the needs, demands and supply that are meant for skills and capabilities, the composition of your workforce based on demographics, which I think is critical from now on and on top of that, you have a skills based plan. So it is very comprehensive. We are very excited, by next year I can give you the results, but we are very excited to implement this. It is new to Prudential to do a strategic workforce planning.

David Green: And it is a nice link with the talent marketplace, I guess, because you are then getting the organisational benefit.

Wagner Denuzzo: Exactly, that is the goal.

David Green: And you have got a really interesting perspective on skills. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Wagner Denuzzo: I have been doing this for a long time and I think most of us, and to be honest too, it is maturity as well, you start getting a different awareness. The other day somebody was saying that we have three phases in our professional lives, 20 to 40, 40 to 60, 60 to 80. I totally believe that, maybe because I am getting more mature, but I do believe that it is critical for us to do that.

But then when I think about skills, we have to be careful, HR sometimes we are so into trends. Of course we have trends that are going to be pervasive, are going to be sustainable and are going to be part of our foundational capabilities. However, the idea of skills as a currency, I totally believe that it has been a currency but I am anticipating that it is not enough. I think key skills is just one piece of the equation here. It is almost like you are a musician, but you know how to play just one instrument. That is not gonna help the orchestra that much because you need to have an awareness of other things. Other things such as self-management, what MIT now is calling the enduring human capabilities. And I like the idea of capabilities because none of the roles you are going to have in the future are going to require just one skill or two, they are going to require a cluster of skills that, combined with your maturity in how to collaborate, and sense the organisational needs in the strategy of the organisation, will lead you to be successful in your role.

So you see it becomes more complex. I think the world is becoming much more complex at all levels, but I think if you can be conscious of that then you can be very successful.

David Green: And of course arguably it has become more complex in the last year because of the pandemic as well. Which leads quite nicely onto the question we are asking all our guests on the show in this series.

We have just been through the biggest, well we are still, in the biggest remote working experiment in history. What should HR leaders do to help their organisations for a future where there will likely be an increase in hybrid working or remote working compared to before the pandemic?

Wagner Denuzzo: I think the number one is self-acceptance. If you think about everything that is happening, all the forces that are impacting us, HR has a responsibility to respond to the person as a whole person now. Now is clearly a matter of understanding what are the boundaries between the personal and professional, and also your understanding of one thing. I come from a clinical background, I have a clinical social work background and I think what I saw is intimacy is increasing with the virtual workforce because you see people's houses, you understand their difficulties, their challenges, their personal challenges. You start getting to know people much more and much deeper. And I think HR has avoided the idea that humans in the workplace need care for their emotional health, their mental health and actually all of the areas that makes people feel that they are in flow. That whole idea of flow and being high performing is about being in equilibrium. So we are going to be much more sensitive to the idea that the whole person has to be well-balanced, on a good trajectory, in a positive mindset. Think about future positive mindset. That is the goal of HR in the next five years, instilling a culture of future positive mindset, where people believe that tomorrow is going to be better than today. And I hope it is. I believe it will be.

David Green: If anything, it is Human Resources helping their organisations be more human centric. I think one of the big features of the pandemic for me has actually been that focus of organisations, or many organisations on employee wellness, safety and health, above everything else actually.

And it is something that is one of the good things from the pandemic that hopefully will continue forward. As you said, it is an equilibrium. You have probably read some of the same reports as me, productivity has gone up during the pandemic. Well, that probably just means people are working longer hours, what is the cost of that. And as you said, there is an equilibrium that we need to help our organisation strive.

I tell you what Wagner, it has absolutely flown by, as I knew it would. Great conversation. Thanks for being a guest on the show. How can people stay in touch with you and follow you on social media?

If you do social media?

Wagner Denuzzo: Thank you very much, David. I have been avoiding social media right now, because it is a little overwhelming, but you can always find me on LinkedIn, of course. And my Gmail is wagnerdenuzzo@gmail.com. You can always reach me there.

But it has being a pleasure too, because I know how much work you have been putting into this podcast. It is extremely valuable. Every time I hear a nuance, that is a different way of positioning ourselves in our value, it creates even more value for the whole community. So I appreciate it. Thank you for doing that for us.

David Green: Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing your time and expertise. Also really exciting work that you are doing at Prudential Financial.

So thank you for being on the show and we will definitely speak again soon.

Wagner Denuzzo: Thank you, David. Looking forward to it.